My Autistic Employee: A mobile app to promote more inclusive work environments

Dan: Hello everyone. Welcome to our first of 2026 idea social innovation lab webinar. My name is Dan Samosh. I'm a professor of employment relations studies at Queens University. Uh and today with us we have Mark Lenova who is a prof from the University of Montreal who's going to talk with us today about neurodiversity in the workplace and specifically autism uh and one approach to supporting managers learning uh through a mobile app. So I'm really excited to to learn from you today Mark. Uh for this session captions should be available. We do also have uh French interpreting available. If you have any questions or the captions interpretation aren't working for some reason, uh please send us a message in the chat and we'll try to resolve that as quickly as possible. We do also have this session uh it will be recorded and it will be posted on the idea website. So be aware of that. If you happen to not catch all of the presentation that you can always come back and review it later or you know someone else who wants to to tune in, uh please let them know about this. and we'll also be sharing slides online or today the structure of the webinar. We have about 1 hour together. Uh after this introduction, most of the remaining time will be Mark's presentation and then an opportunity for Q&A. So as Mark is presenting, please think of your questions. Uh type those into the Q&A function and I will be moderating that so we can have a discussion with Mark about this work. So that's it from me. Uh Mark, I'll turn it over to you.
Marc: Well, thank you Dan for the uh for the introduction. So, I'm very happy to be here today as I'm a professor at the University and I'm as well the scientific director of the instit which is one if not actually the biggest uh research French speaking research center in social research in instead of intellectual disability in uh in Canada. So I'll be presenting some of the of the work that we've been working on in the past in the past few years on uh on developing a mobile app to um to uh promote or facilitate the social inclusion of autistic employees. So first I really have to start by thanking our funders uh because without them I would not be here today. So this was funded by the foundational system, which is a foundation in Quebec that funds research uh and services mainly on uh on autism particularly with an emphasis on on adults. And we also have the depot which is an uh an agency in Quebec that uh that invests uh invests uh money for uh for notably not only them but for for retirement funds. So so thank you to to both of them and also a special thanks to El Dual which was this postoc worked on a lot of the the things I'm going to show to you guys uh to you guys today. So I wanted to start by mentioning some strengths of autistic employees because I know if you guys are here today you don't need to be convinced but still and some people you know sometimes they don't realize how good employees autistic people can make [clears throat] now I'm going to give you a list of some of their strengths but I don't want to fall into over overgeneralization so many individuals with autism or people with autism will have these skills but not obviously viously all of them but it's a skill that we see more more often. So for example some some strengths we have attention to details um memory skills pattern recognition the efficiency honesty loyalty and they bring in a unique perspective to the um to the workplace. So I mean these are all all qualities I think that we value in uh in employees and many autistic individuals will bring this these strengths to whatever organization for which we are are working. So bringing in autistic employee can have a they can do great work. I mean I think some that's something that people tend to uh tend to forget or neglect sometimes especially individuals who are not as or or employers who are not as familiar with autism. They don't realize that an autistic individual or autistic person can make as good of an employee as any other uh individual that doesn't have [clears throat] autism and they are and beyond having a good employee there are many benefits in my opinion of inclusion in the workplace. Uh it can lead to better management practices. I always like how I meet managers and then they follow our training or we meet with them and then they say, you know, what I learned to apply with my employee with autism, I should actually apply all my employees. So, it can lead to to better magic practice, you know, like one of the first thing we tell people is you have to be clear, specific, precise. Well, everybody benefits from that. You have to have clear expectations. Um, you have to give uh you can use checklists. Well, that's good for any employees to to not forget steps. So, it's not limited. The the practices you use with employees with autism maybe the same that you can use with individuals with uh who don't have autism. They can bring innovation. They can bring in new ideas. Sometimes they're we can see them as untapped talent because people they may struggle getting a job due for example to the interviewing skills but they uh they may bring something uh unique to the company. they may uh improve the atmosphere because when we show that we're an inclusive work environment uh it not only has a benefit on the employee that is being included but also on the others to show that the company is contributing not only to making a product or to providing a service but also for the the greater good and it brings into positive values in a in a team environment. I think that's not to be uh not to be neglected. Now, um obviously I I want to be clear today. To me, we should include people with Austin in the workplace even if we didn't have all [laughter] these benefits. And I hope you don't need convincing. But, uh one of the issues or one of the challenges that we've seen in research about individuals with autism in the workplace is uh maintaining employment. So, uh, research has shown that once an autistic employee has a has a job, they may have difficulty maintaining it over time. And there are many issues that may explain or or or cause what we are observing. So, a good example is many frontline managers often have no no formal training. So companies often have especially bigger ones like equity, diversity, inclusion uh counselors or but or consultants but they're not the ones that are directly supervising autistic employees. They're frontline managers. So we have to make sure that the information gets there. uh the it can of I've heard stories about misconceptions or miscommunication uh leading to termination of employments and sometimes individuals may also have uh or managers who don't have training or who don't know not much about us may have unadressed concerns that they may not want to ask because they they think that they should already know or they don't want to show that they they lack the the knowledge. So to me part of the solution is supporting manager managers in their uh in this learning about uh about autism and about how to promote workplaces that benefit or that facilitate the integration of autistic individual. And I'll say again because I said at the beginning but to me it's very important when you create an inclusive environment it benefits all employees. Okay, it's very important because again most of the strategies that we have in our uh in the app that I'll I'll show you are strategies that you should use with all employees if you're implementing best u best practices. So we developed an app for that which is called myotistic employee. It's only available in French for now. So if uh you any of you is interested in and has a bit of funding to translate it to English, we're always uh we're always open. I was telling her before my talk, I was chatting and I was saying how the the challenge is translate translating the videos. I'll show you in a few in a few minutes because we developed animated or animation to explain some of the content. So it's called in French monopatis. It's divided in five main modules and I'll show you each module one after the other. But the first one is you test your knowledge. The second one is uh information in informative slash humorous videos to learn about uh autism. After that there's testimonies. After that there's general tips if you're facing a challenge. And finally, uh there's a list of resources uh in Quebec and in Canada to support uh to support employers who may be facing a bit, uh lot of challenges that may not be fixed by by the app. So the first one is uh the first volume is simply what we call the autism spectrum knowledge. Uh it's a it's a scale that was validated by uh by research. It's uh 31 true or false items and basically the manager when they download that app. So the app is already free on the on the app store and on the uh play store. So you download the app and then it asks for 31 true or false questions uh and then it gives you a score on 100% to see how high your knowledge of autism is uh is currently. So, it's as simple as uh as that and it allows the manager to figure out, you know, where they're at at this at this moment, what they have to work on or or or improve. So, you do this modules, then you move on to module two, which is informative slash humorous videos. Why did we do people often ask me, you know, why did you do humor based videos? And we didn't do that initially. uh I haven't discussed about my prior research but I do quite a lot of research in machine learning and artificial intelligence and developing technologies to support the inclusion of of people with autism or intellectual disability. And what we've been noticing is that our interventions are generally effective but people most people or not most but a lot of people just don't watch our videos or content because it's not entertaining. And so even if a training is only it can be pretty short, people will tune out and they will not listen. And managers are extremely busy people. So that's why um that's why uh it it is something that is is is relevant to keep people's attention because even people with the best of intentions, we do have uh problems to the very least in our research in having people listen to everything and take the time to to look at it. So this is one of our videos. So we can see the cartoons. We will not watch the the video today. Um, but uh it's really it's all about this employee that's autistic. So this is uh this is her and uh I'm looking for my laser pointer. So this is her and her boss that's a bit uh how can I say clumsy so that he does things that he's not supposed to or that he asks pretty blunt questions and then she provides information or accurate information about what is autism in the first videos in the second videos is how to welcome a uh an autistic person in your team. So what to do on the first day and then the third video is more about different strategies that could be implemented to help them out in the in the workplace. So then we have a third module which are testimonials because the problem or not a problem but a challenge with autism is that every person with autism is unique. So by showing a single video, we were showing just one type of of uh one person with one autism and we thought that it wasn't very representative. So we added test testimonials or testimonies um of employees and their frontline managers um in their workplace. So we have one here in a uh factory and we have another one in people working in a actually it's also a factory but with a with a restaurant called St. Sai. So which is fairly popular in Quebec for those who don't know about it. So, we had these testimonies to learn more about um well, how it is, what are some of the challenges, what are some of the strengths to go a bit deeper in the understanding of uh of what autism can look like? Because again, the animation video is pretty cool, but the challenge is the um the the challenge is really the uh seeing that there's a diversity, you know, that there are many different people.
So that's module three. So we have module one with the questionnaire. Module two with the um with the informative videos, number three the testimonials, number four troubleshooting. So you have a problem, what can you do? So do you have a challenge with and this is really a basically a decision tree. So which helps managers and gives them tips. So do you is the challenge related to productivity, completion, quality? If so then you have to choose it. Quality of work is not adequate. Lack of initiative. Procrastination. Pace of work. The second big category is unusual disruptive behaviors. Behaviors that have no impact on work for example. Repetitive behaviors that interferes with others work others or work. Disruptive behavior during routine changes or other disruptive behaviors. And then once you click on all of them, it provides some basic solutions like uh very generic like it's not a specialized app. this more like generic generic intervention that you can implement uh in your workplace to facilitate. So for example, if somebody is lacking initiative, well, do they know what they have to do? Maybe you can do a checklist or make sure that you explain that once they're done what they should be doing that you you always have to work even when you finish all your tasks, you have to find something new.
Finally we have module five which is finding help. So on finding help uh you click and then it provides uh resources for each region uh across Quebec because Quebec is divided in different regions. So it provides people that can help you if you're struggling in integrating a person with autism. We have uh also uh resources that are available for across Quebec and we also have a few for across Canada. So Canadian associate for sport employment inclusion Canada I didn't know but March of Minds has a program uh for for workers and also employment works. So these are all resources that are at the end and like well if the app doesn't help or you need more information here are some associations or organizations that you can communicate with. So that's really our um the app that we developed. But the goal, as I mentioned at the beginning, I was I'm a researcher. So the goal for me was really to test it and to see if it if it works or not. And we just finished like last month or a couple months ago the uh the the research project which I'll tell you a bit about. So what we did is we recruited managers uh online. So we recruited a total of 39. Actually there were more than that. we had trouble with um attrition. So basically people who sign up but don't finish which is often an issue that we face with mo mobile or distancebased um participation research. But we still got 39 managers, [clears throat] 20 managers who did not use the app. So that's what we call in research our comparison group. So these are the people because we needed to compare the people who use the app with people that didn't use. And we have the experimental group which is the 17 managers who used the uh the app. And then it allows us to compare the results of uh of both. We collected some de demographic data on these individuals. For example, the number of years of experience that they have, whether they were female, male or or prefer not to respond or not binary. We also had uh questions about uh or making sure that there were managers uh what's their highest uh level of of education. So we asked all these demographic to give us an idea of who was participating in our research and we had four questionnaires. So we have the openness toward autism scale which is a scale that basically uh pretends uh that you are going to live in the same apartment building as a person with autism and then it says how comfortable or uncomfortable you are to to live in the same same apartment building. Then we have so societal attitudes towards autism which is about uh these questions are like well do you think that uh and don't use my wording it's not exactly that but do you think for example that people with awesome can get married or can have children so it's the attitudes towards uh towards autism then we have the autism spectrum knowledge scale which is the module one which I showed you earlier and finally we looked at whether people were generally satisfied with the apps and we have something called the system usability scale. So the system usability scale basically can see well you know what worked what didn't work for you um involving the uh the app what did you like what could we change so this is really for us to improve what we're um what we're what we're doing so here's a brief description of our participants so uh on average they were 43 years old they had 12 years experience of experience as manager. 62% identified as a female. And I'm providing this information because it's important because you'll see that our sample is biased because 90% knew somebody with autism. 80% had a university degree and most of them was like a masters or doctoral. I think it's 50% that either have a master's doctoral which it does not represent the general population. um and 50% had included an autistic individual in the workplace. Now for fun because I was a bit bored um I asked the when I was preparing my talk I asked PT I would like a picture of a 43 year old manager who has 12 years of experience the manager is a female knows someone with a sim but do not ask someone with aim on the image also she has a master's degree and this is the image that I that I got so I thought it was pretty funny that that is the stereotypical image of a manager that that integrates people with [laughter] with autism according to Jack GPD so so yeah so our and and I'll discuss it a bit later, but one of the issues with the research project is exactly that is that we did most of our recruitment on social media and it was highly educated people who already had an interest in autism who participated which caused some challenges in our data analysis as you will as I will explain on the next uh on the next slide.

Here's our our preliminary results. So the the best result we received is that our our analysis showed that people who use the app versus those who didn't showed better knowledge or more knowledge of autism. So that's good news. So the app is actually increasing managers knowledge about autism. However, and unfortunately for for us, but that's research, we found no difference in attitudes or openness. So what that means is that people in the control group or those who didn't have the app showed the or use the app show the same openness and attitudes as those who did use the app. Nonetheless, nevertheless, 95 95 94% will recommend the app to other managers. 87% appreciated the content and 87% found the con the content useful to facilitate integration. But an interesting result is that 57% of managers wanted more support for integration. So beyond the app. So they're like, you know, the app is a good start. Like you say, they would recommend it. But we would still like even more support to be able to integrate or include autistic employees in our workplace which which tells us a lot about uh about the use of technology and the needs of uh of managers in the in the workplace. Now there are some caveats. The first one is attrition. I I don't have the exact numbers here. So I will I will I think it's about we lost about 33% or about let's say about 30 don't cite me on this if you if you ever see that this in publication it might be a bit different but it's about I would say around 30% of people who didn't finish their participation so this is an issue because maybe only the more motivated you know individuals finished the their participation which may skew our results. Our sample was really small so it was 39. we started like at about around 50 uh sorry around 60 but with the attrition we we we we went down so it's not ideal to produce generalization I think it gives us some uh some insight as to where we should go with this in the future but we definitely need a bigger sample and we need to change our recruitment procedures because they're highly educated these people probably already knew about Austin were probably pro- autism but that's not what the original target of the study were we wanted frontline managers. You know you don't see a lot of frontline managers with master's degree. They often often work as consultant in human resources. Um you know what we wanted to the target of the app is like factory workers and people you know who or restaurant workers so the daily manager the people saw the floor you know the floor manager basically which is doesn't seem to be the people that we targeted. So are not it's the people we target but it's not the people that we got which opens up some questions. So maybe we would see more openness and um better attitudes with this individual who has less knowledge because right now maybe people were already open and n knowledgeable or had good attitudes and it it was difficult to improve and we do not have usage data for the app because we have a limited budget. We couldn't build a whole like system to collect well how much time did they go on the app they do. So we just have some minimal data on the data dates that they were accessed. Now my results are mixed as you can see. So our results are mixed. Does it mean we have to uh throw away the app? Not necessarily. We've seen people appreciate it. We see that um it is increasing knowledge but we need to do more research. And one solution that we found is that we we did a [clears throat] another study a few years ago on using virtual reality and we used the same questionnaire that this study. So it's called an issues of person. This one is available in English and in French on the MetaQuest store for free. So if you ever go this is completely free. it's available and we administered it to people um who uh most of them did not have had just finished high school. So they had an high school education but they weren't like as educated as educated as our current sample. And what we found is really strong results to improve attitudes, openness and knowledge. So maybe the solution to our problem right here is to combine you know the app with something like virtual reality to raise awareness about opposite because again we use exactly the same uh the same tools but we just tested two different thing in one case was an app for the other case it was this is in the shoes of an artistic person is just for the general public so anybody can download it and it's uh it's really to wear uh to raise awareness. So maybe one solution would be to combine the two, you know, to do like to say, well, you have the app, but how about we put you in the shoes of autistic person to to to make you feel like one and to see uh how it changes your u your attitudes, you know, and your openness, which are two, in my opinion, important uh values that we should promote when we're working with uh when we're integrating or including people who have differences, who diverge, who have who are neurody diverse.
Finally, what do I want you guys to take out of my talk today? Then we'll have plenty of time for for question discussion. Mobile technology is no silver bullet. And I was a bit I I told you I was a bit disappointed by my result, but at the same time, it makes it makes sense. You know there's we try to make things simpler and you know to make them more accessible but sometimes you also need somebody else in there or you need to combine it with other things because we only use mobile technology. We provided no other support. So maybe we need to look at hybrid models that can provide u more supports to the employers that integrate these uh these autistic employees. the app made diff different definitely improve knowledge. So we really saw an increase in uh in knowledge uh or not an increase a difference in knowledge between the two groups. The impact on behavior remains unclear. So whether using the app really makes you a better manager is not a question that we asked. So we cannot make any conclusion regarding this at this point in time but definitely uh something to look into. We have to plan for human support too. I'm a researcher. My goal was to isolate the effects of the app. I didn't want anybody else in there, you know, teaching these individual at the same time. But what the people report is like, well, we like the app. We'd like also in person or at least um if they live, you know, it doesn't have to maybe in person face to face, but maybe on on Zoom or something support. So I think we cannot forget how important this is. Interpersonal relationships seem important. That's a lesson I've learned by doing a lot of techn technology research. Like I say, our technologies are often very effective at changing uh knowledge or even at changing some behaviors of we've done some with parents, but it all it often come backs to a lot of individuals, parents, people with autism, managers. It's even better when they have the human contact. uh it has a bigger uh it produces larger changes in behavior and definitely as I mentioned we need more research. I mean there is like I said by my by results I consider them very preliminary. I think that we have to look into different ways that we could uh that we could improve upon uh upon them because like I say we there is more knowledge but the most important my opinion is doesn't translate to changes in actual uh actual behavior because you know an app that just improves knowledge but doesn't improve behavior. You know, it's a bit like if your medical doctor learned something new about anti-depressants, but he doesn't apply that what he learned in his prescribing habits. I mean, it's pretty much useless. So, it's a bit the same thing. you know, if managers are not using what they learn to uh promote or facilitate uh employment maintenance over time, it may become uh I mean it the utility is is questionable. We call it in research social validity. So the social validity could be considerably uh improved. So that's it um for me. So now I think uh you have my email there if you ever have any uh any questions uh that you don't want to ask in front of everybody but I hope you will because we have a 30 minute uh question period now that uh that you have the opportunity. Yeah, Mark, thank you so much. Thank you so much for a great presentation. Uh and I want to note um Mark partway through our captions started working but for the beginning of the presentation we were having issues with captioning. Um, so to the audience, uh, now is the time where you can ask your questions. Please use the Q&A function, uh, and I will relay those questions to Mark. Um, but maybe while people are typing in their questions, I'm just thinking for those who are waiting on the captioning, um, what was really missed was the introduction to the app and a fair bit amount of the information on the research was was, um, was captured by captions. Could you Mark could you do just like a really quick reintro of the app for those who who get captions? Thank you so much. I will do you a three minute recap and I'll even use the slide so you can see. So there's five modules in the app. It's available all in French for now. If you ever you have funding to translate this, please let me know. But it's more than translated because there's funny videos. So we need also to uh to redo voice actors and do a bit of animation. But we are more than open because most of what we do usually except from this app are are bilingual. Um so it has five modules. Module ones ask questions about your knowledge of autism. So it it gives you a percentage uh on 31 questions who were false items and it has been previously validated in um in research. So this is really to assess the manager's knowledge of autism before they start using the app. Second modules are the informative videos. Informative videos are fun videos which uh but are informative at the same time which are cartoons to explain what autism is. There's three. What autism is uh how to uh welcome a person with autism or an autistic individual on your team. And finally, the last one is um some strategies to help your autistic employee. So these are really meant and we made them funny or hum or we used humor because we wanted to keep people engaged because we found in our prior research that people you know if it's not entertaining I can't if we can't compete with Tik Tok it's very difficult to keep people's attention let's put it that way some people are their model motivated and we'll keep it but the people we're targeting often are not. Finally, we have testimonials from employ uh for from employees and employers because we wanted to show a diversity of individuals with autism because you know in a cartoon there's just one person. So, but autism is not there's as many autism as there are people with autism. I mean they everybody's different. So, we wanted to show a bit more uh variety.
The fourth module is the troubleshooting one. So the troubleshooting one is um to help like let's say you have an employee that the quality of work is not adequate or that procrastinates or that the pace of work is not fast enough. Well, we give universal or strategies that can be used to help the employee um to try to help the employee to meet the expectations of the uh of the environment. So we have a whole category on productivity, completion and quality and we also have a category on unusual or disruptive behaviors which may happen in the uh in the workplace and we really provide general guidance. Like I say it's more I I call them universal intervent universal interventions which are probably interventions that would also be effective other employees that do not have that do not have autism that they could benefit from but it's really to to assist the manager. And finally, the last module is if you're looking for help. So, if you're looking for help, um, then we have, uh, resources across Canada, mainly in Quebec because it's in in French, but we also have a Canada, the Canadian Association for Support Employment, including Canada, the March of Dimes and Employment Works, to support um, for employers who say, "Well, the app was pretty cool, but it doesn't help me." Or, "It does help me, but I have another problem." Or, "It's super helpful, but I'd like to learn even more." Well, these are are places where they can go and as I mentioned in the results, this is a useful useful section because a lot of a lot of the managers were mentioning, well, no, the app is nice, but I'd also like to have more help if I if I can.
Dan: Great. Thank you so much, Mark. Um, so we have we've had some questions come in while you were while you were sharing again. Um the first one you spoke about just briefly um but people are asking if there's going to be an English language version of the app and the videos.
Marc: We are looking into it. The problem is the funding right now because [clears throat] the videos are are it's not the app that's complicated to to translate. It's really the the the videos because we need to go in a studio with voice actors and we need to work with an animation company that will like redo the the lips of the characters. Although it's pretty low tech because we made it on purpose to make it funny, but it still requires some um it would require quite a lot of uh of work. So, we are exploring funding opportunities. Um but hopefully someday cuz I know the people who funded our work uh mentioned that uh English would be important for them eventually even know if it's a foundation in Quebec. So we in the short term you don't have the funding right now but if you have any ideas for you please for us please email me.
Dan: Yeah great thank you and I know yeah it seems many people in the audience are hopeful for it. So I hope you get that funding. Um and just in case I've noticed uh some new people have joined in the webinar. Uh, so we're just in our Q&A right now. If you do have a question for Mark, uh, please type that into the Q&A function on Zoom and then I'll relay the question. Um, one question we have here, which is an really interesting one, um, is considering the modules you shared, uh, are there plans to include information about neuroinclusive or specifically autism friendly in this case hiring and interviewing practices?
Marc: It it wasn't planned but it's definitely a next logical step because I think that's something because we focused on maintaining employment because that's what our partners had discussed with us and said that it was an issue but definitely to have I mean I've been working in autism I didn't mention at the beginning but since 2002 so more than 20 years uh I mean one issue is the interview process obviously where people were going to interview they're nice on paper and they're probably pretty competent, too. But if you're not used to interacting with people with autism, you might find your interaction a bit unusual. You may interpret stuff that isn't there, you know, like for example, they may use a monotonous tone, you know, or be monotonous, and then you say, "Oh, well, they're not that interested in the in the job, but that has nothing to do with it. It's just how they interact with you." So definitely I like the the idea and this is something that we could uh that we could extend, you know, in in the future. It's it's it's a skill that's not easy to to master.
Dan: Yeah. And our next question is about uh corporate culture in the organizations that you were studying. So do you have a sense of the existing corporate culture of those organizations and like were they already accepting workplaces? uh were they kind of exclusionary workplaces? Any any sense you have there?
Marc: We suspect that we didn't collect data because we said we recruited through social media because we wanted to have as many diverse like employment settings as we could. That being said, based on our data, they seem to be fairly inclusive environments already. you know they don't we don't seem to have a lot of participants where uh their environments for example their workplace did not integrate uh people with either neurodyiversity or other type of uh of difference or or disability. And so we I suspect that our our sample was biased in this case towards you know because people who participate uh usually you know they saw the word autism so they get in their feed and they're interested to see what they can can do with that.
Dan: And our next question is um about the attrition that you experienced uh and wondering if you had the opportunity of course it's something very difficult to actually do but to to connect with anyone who did choose to leave to understand why?
Marc: we did not I can only speak of our prior projects. It seems that people with uh lower level of educational attainment tend to drop out more and our sample would indicate the same thing. And I want to be clear uh that it is not necessarily because they have a lower education attainment. It could be like you know usually they're rel they're related to uh jobs that pay less. So maybe they can't afford uh child care or you know they can't afford some things that are related or as much child care that is related to spending an hour to respond to to use the app and you know responding to the to the questionnaires. But we have definitely found that in our prior research. But in this study, we haven't uh we haven't examined that uh that variable. But what we had found was that usually parent most parents who finish at the start, you know, who start the study and those who finish those usually those who finish uh have a higher education level or higher um higher uh social economic e economic standing or status.
Dan: Yeah. Well, it makes me wonder, you know, within because the context of our webinar, we have so many people uh who are present who are from both the for-profit, nonprofit and policy worlds. There might be opportunity to partner uh next with the with an organization who's running programs and then like use the app within which would be really interesting perhaps in terms of the sample that you get.
Marc: Yeah. And and I would suggest like I say I don't think and and you know as my last line mentioned you know to remember I don't think it's a silver bullet in a sense it will work with some people not with everybody. I mean and that's what we've been finding is that most of our technology works with a subsample pretty well but there's a people that just don't finish. So we don't know if it's effective but regardless if it's effective or not if it don't finish that means that it's not meeting their needs or it's too much and they need something more. And I think that the relationship part is very important. Yeah. And with the with the use of the app, uh we have a question here about the employees themselves. Uh were the employees aware that their managers were using this app or this was just on the manager because they didn't have to because we just we just looked at the attitudes openness of managers. So they didn't even have to integrate somebody at with Austin at this point in time. The next logical step would be that would be receive an autistic employee and then give you the app and see if integration goes better with the app than without the app. But we weren't there yet for now. We just wanted to check effects on knowledge, effects on um effects on openness and attitudes of the manager. So it was not a requirement to participate in the study and in in any way but that would be relevant. And obviously I think that I'm very I'm a a strong proponent of transparency. So I feel that I would tell them. I mean I think that's something important you know just say oh well you know we're integating you just so you know we also have an app that I'm using uh just to help me out uh to provide some uh some support you know.
Dan: Yeah and it seems several people are interested in the videos that you shared about and so they're curious uh where they can find these videos.
Marc: uh they can find them on the easiest is on the is to find them on the on the app um because right now we haven't uh distributed them at at large but I can see because they're on YouTube but you can't find them on YouTube you have to have the specific link that's the that's the thing so I can uh try to pro provide the links after the the direct links after the talk.
Dan: great yeah if you mind we can maybe we can post them
Marc: a goal eventually uh it was one of our goals eventually to make it available but they're as I mentioned they're only in French but we we have activated auto translate to English it's just some things are not as funny because well there's timing with jokes and [laughter] you know and there's also cultural references to things that are unique to to Quebec that's why I was mentioning earlier it would require a bit of rework to make it uh to make it adequate for for the rest of Canada but it is doable for sure. Nice.
Dan: And our next question is about uh experience within organizations and how often managers or senior leaders uh some of their push back around disability and hiring are fears and kind of myths about associated costs. Um, and so they were wondering in your work if you have any data or information on the actual costs associated with retaining someone uh with autism who's autistic.
Marc: I have we have not conducted that type of research in our work. That being said, as I mentioned being I feel that if you're looking at that there are undeniable uh benefits that are intangible and that's the problem. you can't really put money on more positive values on your team, better scheme spirit, you know, these are not things in my opinion that you can measure really well. Although I'm not, just to be clear, I'm a I'm a behavior analyst. I'm not I'm not like somebody from a management school. So, you know, it's not my expertise per se. My expertise is more about inclusion regardless of the environment. But I feel that um that you yes in some case you may have lower productivity because we have conducted some research not in autism of intellectual disability which we hatch trying to teach individuals with intellectual disability to collect data basic not to collect enter data you know like do uh data entry uh and we found you know even though we're able to increase their productivity we couldn't achieve the productivity of somebody who doesn't have an intellectual disability. That being said, despite these results, I still feel that they can make a unique contribution. And like I said, they can make better managers. You know, if I were like a not a a middle manager, I want my managers to integrate people because it it will improve different people because it will improve them. It will bring new ideas, but it's hard to put it. I feel and I'm no expert in the field. Again, just a little warning. I feel that um there are many benefits that are difficult to uh to quantify in terms of money but that probably affect uh that probably positively affect uh you know man uh teams.
Dan: Yeah. And I really appreciate earlier um you know I think you did a nice job of sharing things like potential benefits and such without overgeneralizing which is so often what can happen uh in these spaces. So I I I do really Yeah, it's appreciated how you've balanced that we have a business situation, but our goal here is inclusion fundamentally and helping people understand people. Um our next question is again kind of related to issues of stigma and management uh and around how often uh people like autistic people uh also have other neurode divergences uh for instance ADHD uh and so just the the question asker is wondering if there's information on this in the app as well u and their concern being that a lot of lower level managers um you know might rely on these kind of classic forms of stereotyping around invisible experience maybe assuming that something isn't real or making negative assumptions about the person?
Marc: well what we put in the app for that is and and I'll come back a bit to word I use is we we suggest mainly universal strategies so these strategies are as good for autism that they would be for somebody in your team so it's not They're good for everyone. So, you know, if you have somebody with ADHD, providing clear and precise instructions is a good thing to do. Having somebody with ADHD who does unusual behaviors that don't affect the workplace and that don't affect their work, just let them be. But that's what we say in the app. So a lot of what you know what we say in happy is actually we we called it for autism but we could have called some of the parts like just uh best practices in in managing employees to to stay on task you know or to um or what to do when an employee you know engages in behavior that they're not supposed to engaging in the workplace you know they're not special they're not specialized like specific for autism they should work with with anyone. So that's how we saw it. But we did not include any discussion of uh of how these individuals may have different u different needs. So it's not just the autism, but to me it's just an app about people who are different. You know, to me, I I would have loved to make just an app and you know, we were talking about it. I'm like maybe we that's what we should have do just like including different people, you know, because it's not about the autism. It's just about including people that are different that have different needs. Yeah. And so within this as well, because you've mentioned that you've been a behavior analyst for for uh like since the early 2000s, um within the workplace, in addition to the app, what have you seen uh work well in terms of helping managers understand how to communicate better, how to engage in a lot of it or a lot of what I hear because I haven't I uh I've worked more in in other environments, but I I was in contact with the work and and what I feel is probably one of the main if not the number one predictor is the attitude of the manager of the frontline manager. It's not about, you know, the organization has to be welcoming, but if you have a first line manager, a frontline manager or floor manager who really wants to integrate and want to makes it want to make it work, it's a lot more likely to work than if you have somebody who's like, "Oh, here's a person with a sim or with an intellectual disability, they're in your team, they didn't ask for opinion, and you don't believe in it." So I feel a lot of it is more than just teaching people about the the benefits but also making sure that the managers that will be overseeing that individual on a day-to-day basis again not the middle managers the upper manager the the lower level should be on board too and I think that's something that's sometime neglected because you hear a lot that's you have a lot of consultants in or not a lot but you have consultant in equity, diversity and inclusion are and uh which are really pro but does you know inclusion which makes sense but it has to trickle down to to to everybody.
Dan: Have you with this as well? I know it's very early stages, so the answer might be no, but have you engaged with any organizations or those kind of leaders within organizations who have a DEI focus uh who might be interested in promoting this within their organization?
Marc: Yeah, I won't name the organization, but we work with one organization in particular who appreciated uh the app. They were asking them, you know, how they could integrate it and how they could do uh they could do better work and and and you know, they generally agreed, you know, that one of the key to success is not only know providing information but also having a company culture that goes down to all levels of of management and even to the employees because I mean if you have employees who shine you know employee that's neurodyiverse I mean it will make a very friendly and you know inclusive workplace. It's not just about parachuting somebody in a team. It's about including them in a team.
Dan: Yeah. Yeah. And so [clears throat] within that organized work, uh what are some next steps that you have in mind for the app?
Marc: Well, the next step or obviously if we can find funding for English, we will put in English because that's what we do for everything we uh we do. I we'd like I'd like to retest it with a a sample that is not as educated as the one that we had. And one thing I'd like a lot is uh to do something similar but with intellectual disability because people have even more concerns. We can even call them fears about integrating people with intellectual disability because you know a lot of people with autism have normal or above average intelligence. But you know when you're talking intellectual disability people have so many misconceptions. They don't realize how amazing employees these individuals can make and what they can contribute to a team not being on a you know like a segregated work plateau or but really being part and fully part of the team they can make in my opinion amazing or great contributions and I think that they're really underestimated. So that's really something that's of of high interest to me to say, okay, we've done that for autism. Can we see what we can do with inflight disability? And obviously building upon what we've learned in the study to try to make the app even more um uh more effective and like and again testing it with people with managers who have a high school degree and not with managers who have a master's degree. I think just that I suspect I can't be sure. My hypothesis is that we would have seen a different in attitudes and openness if you would have tested it on a on a sample of people who were already well aware and probably pro pro-incclusion because it it really can give you some tips and it shows you that you know these people aren't and I'll use a word that may sound offensive but that's not my opinion but some people may even be concerned maybe these people are dangerous because they're so different you know they're not they're just like you and me you know they just behave differently but they share similar concerns and uh they can make great employees.
Dan: Yeah, thank you. And our next question is more kind of general research kind of focused um although it can relate to the app if there there is a relation there um about autism and intersectionality and if there's just anything you're noticing within the workplace within perhaps the use of this app um considering intersectional identity in this work?
Marc: um I think that regarding research it is important to be to try to build intersection I can't say that we're doing this but work with multiple you know sectors together to develop these types of research because we bring something new like one of my colleagues who's on this research project is actually a management professor well if and I'm more like I say I'm more like if you want to call it psychology behavior analysis I'm more like in the social sciences she's management there's a lot of things that as a behavior analyst I would have put in there but she's like no Mark, you don't understand management practice. It doesn't make sense. They're [snorts] not. She had to remind me constantly that these people are not therapists. They are managers. So, but I would have made many mistakes if we didn't have inter sector collaboration. Same thing when we collaborate with people in in in engineering. you know when we develop these app you have to make sure that they understand what we need in this case I haven't told you but uh I'm fortunate enough that I have a training in both so I actually take care of the programming side um I mean the supervision I don't we don't program all ourselves but um but I mean that's another way that we have to work together and we actually just as a as a nice as a nice aside it's actually a person with autism who coded the app so we hired company it's called and I can name it. It's Auticon. So they hire uh autistic individuals to uh to program and by the way they did an amazing job. They really did I work with a lot of programming companies and uh so this is a plug for Oticon today but they do a really really good job at uh at program my programmer was was amazing.
Dan: Thank you. So uh our next question is whether you have any tips or lessons that you have learned in this research process that could help managers implementing the learnings from your findings when working with neurody diversion staff or people uh with autism uh to make the workplace more inclusive.
Marc: One lesson I've learned is we're discussing with colleagues that are in management notably and by looking at the results and looking what we recommend is that the strategies that we recommend don't just implement it with your autistic employee. Implement it with everybody. They're useful strategies. Not everybody's going to use them. Let's say you make a checklist, but you may have other employees who don't have a autism who may sometimes skip a task or who may procrastinate or who may, you know, it doesn't have to be targeted at the person. It can be a team, you know, can be implemented for the for the team. I think that's one thing that I I learned by conducting the study that, you know, we tend to focus on the diagnosis, but basically we're we're we should focus on behaviors that are that we want to see in the in the workplace. And autistic employees sometimes are not the problem, you know, and that's what's other thing we hear sometimes like, oh, if you know, often times they do a a good a good job and sometimes when integration doesn't work, it's not the fault of the autistic employee. Again, it's the there's all sorts of systems that may uh prevent or hinder the inclusion of the person in the workplace. I think that we, you know, maybe because I'm a behavior analyst, I tend to focus on the behavior of people with autism. I'm like, well, I'll change their behavior uh so that they can conform to the environment. But what the project and what I liked about it is that we're like, no, it shouldn't be just changing the people with autism or autistic individuals behavior. should be about changing the manager's behavior too and changing you know uh system level you know uh procedures to promote their their inclusion. Yeah, it's a really nice point and it reminds me of you know the idea of often that like good management is inclusive management that they're they're the same thing and the point you made earlier about how it would be nice if this could really be an app about just including you know employees who are different because everyone is different. Uh it's just a matter of vantage point. Uh it it makes me wonder too there's an amazing guide um also it was initially in French but now it's also in English too. I'm not going to pronounce the organization name correctly but Chris Besh uh on neuromix communications out of Quebec. Um and it it's really wonderful how it it it does a beautiful job of exploring how everyone can kind of meet in the middle with communication.
Dan: And I wonder uh again it's probably aspirational but is there any thought around uh making an app where the employee and the manager can interface so you know if there is communication based conflict or whatever it might be uh where these issues arise uh that both parties can kind of engage through the app.
Marc: The this is not in our plans. That being said, it's an excellent idea because especially in autism because some people with autism again not over we can't overdilation struggle more in face to face contact and if there's conflicts it can be harder face to face. So if you had an app, you know, to put a certain uh filter between the person, especially with AI too, you could do some pretty cool things, you know, if if the interaction is inadequate, it could change some wording, you know. Um, but I think that would be something that would be really interesting to to explore for sure because not everybody is at ease with facetoface communication, especially when there's conflict involved. For some people it's easier in the in writing. Yeah. Yeah. It's those easy kind of breakdown points, right? And you don't have to read nonverbal, you know, you can just focus on a text. You don't have to focus on, well, is he smiling? Is he pouting? Is he is he looking at you? Is he looking elsewhere? You know, there's and it may even help managers because sometimes they misread and I mentioned at the beginning uh their artistic employees. So, the artistic employee will have will seem very bored, but they're not bored at all. They're having fun doing the task. just they don't express their joy in the same manner as somebody who does not have autism.
Dan: Yeah. Okay. So, we'll see you back here next year with that app. Yeah. [laughter] No, but we're we're almost at time. So, I'm going to wrap us up. Uh I think we had a couple questions that we didn't get to. So, please uh send an email to Russenova if you you didn't get to question. Um but it was yeah, it was really nice to learn from you. Thank you so much, Mark. Um, thank you to our presenter. Thank you to the team in the background that makes all of this work. Uh, if you weren't here at the beginning, just a reminder, this video will be posted on the idea website. Uh, and see you next month where I'll be changing roles. I'll end up uh, presenting some of my research team's work on how to make career fairs uh, more accessible and disability inclusive. So, yeah, thanks for joining us and have a nice weekend.