**Bridgette (00:06)**
Welcome to the IDEA|4DY podcast series. I'm your host, Bridgette Sterling.

**Valerie (00:14)**
A lot of the times what we sort of even perceive to be non-intentional or consequential to entering into apprenticeship can mean the difference between somebody having the confidence to even try to begin. So I think a big part of that is us as employers and people who engage with youth to attract them to apprenticeship. We need to actually take a look at where does apprenticeship start? What are we promising, and how do we continue to support them through to success?

**Bridgette (00:43)**
You just heard from Valerie Vanderwyk, who brings her perspective on the role of inclusive apprenticeship pathways in supporting a more diverse and sustainable workforce. Apprenticeships are often viewed as one of the strongest pathways into construction, manufacturing, and the skilled trades. They combine hands-on learning, equitable participation, completion, or long-term success. For many youth, including neurodivergent youth, youth with intellectual disabilities, and youth navigating mental health challenges, barriers can appear throughout the journey.

From recruitment and onboarding to training environments, assessments, workplace culture, and career progression. So the question becomes: how do we design apprenticeship pathways that do more than open the door? Pathways that support people in successfully moving through them.

**Bridgette (01:44)**
This podcast is a part of the 4DY (For Diverse Youth) Initiative, developed by IDEA (Inclusive Design for Employment Access). A knowledge-to-practice effort

**Bridgette (01:55)**
focused on strengthening workforce outcomes for youth with disabilities, particularly neurodivergent youth, youth with intellectual disabilities, and youth navigating mental health challenges. Throughout this series, we explore how employers, training providers, and industry leaders can move from good intentions toward practical, sustainable approaches to inclusion. In this episode, we focus on apprenticeship pathways, exploring the barriers that exist, the role of inclusive training practices, and how standards can support more equitable systems.

**Bridgette (02:31)**
Before we begin, I'd like each of you to briefly introduce yourself and share your connection to apprenticeship systems, training, or workforce development. Carmine Tiano, let's start off with you.

**Carmine (02:45)**
Good morning, Bridgette. My name is Carmine Tiano, and I'm the Director of Occupational Services at the Ontario Building Trades. We are the third biggest Building Trades Council in North America with around a hundred and fifty thousand members across all sectors of construction. My involvement when it comes to skills development is more in the ability that I have at the Building Trades.

To deal with the individual training coordinators across all the trades and have an understanding of the dynamics that they encounter in the specific trades. One of the biggest problems we have is not understanding what building trades actually is. People have all these ideas what a building trades worker is, and they don't understand the dynamics.

And the specific skill sets and sometimes the real difficult problems that exist, especially in areas that are underserviced. And that's something I think I can bring to the table.

**Bridgette (03:41)**
Fantastic. Really looking forward to digging in deeper into all of that today. Now, Valerie, I would love to hear from you next.

**Valerie (03:49)**
Good morning. My name is Valerie Vanderwyk, and I'm the Executive Director of Indigenous Skills Employment Apprenticeship and Development. We are a national not-for-profit organization that is mandated to ensure equitable access for Indigenous youth, people, and communities for opportunities in education, training, and skills development through apprenticeship in the skilled trades. We're very fortunate to be very heavily partnered with the Construction Building Trades across the country, and we find that through partnership, we're able to find individuals who are like-minded and hold and share the same values so that we can improve opportunities for underrepresented groups to access this type of professional employment.

**Bridgette (04:31)**
Phenomenal. It'll be so great to have your perspective today. Now, Josh, let's hear from you next.

**Joshua (04:36)**
Hey, good morning, everybody. My name is Josh Ivany. I work with Skills Canada Newfoundland and Labrador. I manage the Youth Apprenticeship Summer Program, also commonly referred to as YASP. It is a summer wage subsidy program where high school students are placed in apprenticeships with skilled trades employers and given the opportunity to work as registered youth apprentices in the field of their choice under a certified journey person.

It provides excellent exposure to these youth. Helps them determine if the skilled trades are for them. And it's a great way for them to start earning money while earning also early apprenticeship hours.

This is only the fourth iteration of the program. This year we have just under 90 youth apprentices assigned to skilled trades jobs across the province of Newfoundland and Labrador in most Red Seal trades, including carpentry, welding, automotive tech, heavy-duty equipment technician, plumbing, cooking, and more. And this is a fantastic experience for the youth who are about to graduate high school.

**Bridgette (05:26)**
Amazing. Thank you so much for leading us through all of the great work you're connected to. And last but not least, Stuart, tell us a little bit about yourself and your connection to this space that we're discussing today.

**Stuart (05:38)**
Good morning and thank you for having me. My name is Stuart Simpson. I am the Training Director for Smart Local 47 Training Center. I've been working here for eight years. We look after all the apprenticeship training, junior person skills upgrades, safety training for just under 1,500 members. So it's a busy place to be. We also run 10 night school programs twice a year. So we've got about 276 apprentices currently.

And we walk them through as quickly and as efficiently through the apprenticeship process as possible.

**Bridgette (06:07)**
Incredible. Thank you so much. And thank you everyone for being here today. I'm really excited about having all of your perspectives and experiences as we get into this conversation on apprenticeship pathways. So to start us off, when we think about apprenticeship pathways today, where do you all see the greatest opportunities and challenges in creating environments where a broader range of youth can enter, learn, progress, and eventually succeed? I'm going to start us off with Valerie.

**Valerie (06:40)**
Thank you, Bridgette. A lot of the times what we sort of even perceive to be non-intentional or consequential to entering into apprenticeship can mean the difference between somebody having the confidence to even try to begin. So I think a big part of that is us as employers and people who engage with youth to attract them to apprenticeship. We need to actually take a look at where does apprenticeship start? What are we promising? And how do we continue to support them through to success. So identifying those barriers that exist for people in a wealth of different ranges and places and the intersectionalities that come with individuals is extremely important.

Instead of just dismissing them, actually acknowledging them and working with them.

**Bridgette (07:24)**
Amazing. Thank you so much for leading us through that. To continue on the conversation, I'm curious to hear from folks where you're finding those barriers showing up, entering the programs in the training, the assessments, the completion. Josh, perhaps you can share some insight over here.

**Joshua (07:42)**
Yeah, so in relation to my work with Skills Canada NL, I'd say the biggest opportunity is increasing awareness and access to apprenticeship pathways for all the youth who have interest in going down that path. Programs like YASP, the Youth Apprenticeship Summer Program, help by providing early paid work experience and connecting students with skilled trade employers. The biggest challenge is probably removing those barriers. Some of those include limited awareness, transportation, financial constraints, workplace exclusion even. So every young person has an equal opportunity to succeed in the skilled trades. So all about awareness.

**Bridgette (08:15)**
Thank you so much. Stuart, is there anything that that you would like to add to the conversation in terms of those greatest opportunities as well as those greatest challenges and barriers when we're looking at apprenticeship pathways today?

**Stuart (08:30)**
I think one of the biggest barriers right now is just the lack of knowledge out there. They people don't know what it is. A lot of people used to look at the trades as a dumping ground for the uneducated. And a lot of the people that I work with are some of the smartest people I've met. I have a roofer right now who's decided to change careers, who has a master's degree in engineering and just wants to work on the tools. So it's a very wide program.

Back when I was young, high schools had trade wings. You had all these amazing trade courses. You got to try them out for a semester. And now the schools really don't talk much about the trades. We just finished a program with 24 guidance counselors where they came and spent the day with us. And we got to teach them a bit of sheet metal. They worked with the bricklayers over at local seven. They did a bunch of hands-on experiences.

And they went back with a better understanding of what the trades are so they can at least bring that to the students and say, hey, you can make a really good living if you don't want to go to college or university. The trades are there. And this is the best time I think I've ever seen to become an apprentice is now in Ontario with all the work. We're gonna have apprentices that start the mega hospital here in Ottawa, and they'll do their entire apprenticeship on that one job. So it's a it's a great time to become an apprentice.

**Bridgette (09:38)**
Incredible. And I appreciate that insight as well of looking at it from a systems perspective, where we really also need guidance counselors and everybody within that journey of going into and exploring apprenticeship to have that awareness. So that's really helpful to know as well. Carmine, so curious to hear from you what trends you're seeing across the trades when it comes to creating some of those stronger pathways into this industry.

**Carmine (10:05)**
Let me take a bit of a different perspective.

I think that one of the positives, you know you're in trouble when you start off with a positive because there's a but coming.

**Bridgette (10:12)**
Ha ha.

**Carmine (10:13)**
I think the best positive is everybody's trying to fix the problem of skills trades. Everybody. So if you look, provinces, state, international.

But here comes the but. There's no central coordinated strategy to deal with the multiple pieces. As Stuart said, Stuart brought in the guidance counselor, the educators aren't part of it, bringing in governments of all levels, bringing in industry. So almost like you create an industrial economic strategy for this to succeed and eventually get to where we're trying to get today, bring in the pathway with people that have disabilities or neurodivergent, traditionally underserviced people. If you don't have the strategy, you're gonna run into problems. And I think there's a multiple problem that we've run into right now.

Which I could probably get into a little bit later, but my thing is we need to have a coordinated strategy. If you don't, it can be siloed. And that's what I think is happening.

**Bridgette (11:15)**
I really appreciate that perspective. It isn't just the employers, it isn't just the educators, but there needs to be a coordinated approach that's looking at things holistically from a system for us to create the type of change we're all looking for. Before we move on to the next question, would love to bring it back to Josh, if there's anything you'd like to share with us, really looking from that youth perspective, what young people are navigating that might not always be visible when we're looking at employers and training providers.

**Joshua (11:47)**
Yeah, so I'd say that many youth are navigating challenges that aren't always visible to employers or even just the people who are directly around them. Transportation, financial pressures, family responsibilities, mental health, or a lack of confidence or exposure to these career opportunities. It's important to be flexible, supportive, open to the mentorship opportunities that are presented to you. And some of that can make a huge difference in helping them succeed and follow their path into that field. And S C N L is all about promoting exposure to the skill trades. So that's one of our main priorities.

**Bridgette (12:21)**
Thank you so much. So we all want apprenticeship pathways to work for a wider range of learners and future tradespeople. But let's talk a little bit about what that actually requires in practice.

So perhaps, Stuart, I can bring this over to you. What role do our instructors, supervisors, and mentors play in these training environments? And how can organizations balance consistent standards with flexibility and support?

**Stuart (12:52)**
That's a big question. The biggest factors we see with any successful training program is first we have to understand the various roles that we all play. Each one is equally important, but each role is very different. Instructors, our job is to pass our knowledge along and our skills to the apprentice.

That they'll need in order to be successful over their apprenticeship. Responsible for making sure that the entire class is taught to that same standard, which can be really difficult when you've got some neurodiverse students in the class. However, we make sure that safety is emphasized, the curriculum is constantly delivered at the same level. And then basically we provide the foundation for the supervisors or four-persons to go to the next step. The supervisors take all that learning and they reinforce it on the job with practical skills, real life experience. They're the ones that make sure the apprentices are applying what they've learned correctly, they're doing it safely, and they're continuing to develop real work environments. They've also got an opportunity that they can recognize an apprentice if they have potential to become something more than just a lack of better words, a rank and file member. Some members are really happy, just I want to go to work, I want to work my 36 and then go home. And then you've got these small percentages that they want to move on to something greater. They want to be a supervisor, project manager, or higher. And then there's the mentor. I think all of us are mentors. We mentor the students, the other co-workers on site mentor the students. And they're not looking to evaluate the apprentice. They're looking to build their confidence, offer them advice, and help them through that journey. And if you have all of these put together, you can really put out some amazing individuals. So I think that's kind of how we should do it. We can't change the standards when it comes to safety, quality, or competency. Every apprentice should graduate the course doing the exact same work.

We make accommodations obviously for neurodivergent apprentices, but the expectation is the same. You know, maybe we give somebody an extra hour on a test. We give them some take-home work to make sure they're consistently meeting that standard. And it gets tricky because with neurodivergent students, and I know I'm one, some of us learn by watching the PowerPoints and listening to the instructor. There's others that are more tactile, so hands-on.

So over the past two years, we've really changed our curriculum to be what I think is extremely inclusive. We do a combination of in theory class, for example, we'll bring a bunch of the different pieces of tools or different fire dampers. We'll bring them into the classroom instead of just showing them a PowerPoint and say, you know, here it is. We'll physically show them so they can handle, they can see it in three dimensions. And that seems to have a really positive impact. We're definitely in the high 80s, low nineties for pass rates. So we're we're really pushing hard and making sure the students get what they require. So I think we have one of the best training environments around.

**Bridgette (15:44)**
That's incredibly inspiring to hear as a neurodivergent youth at one point that definitely learn different ways. I really appreciate how you're taking a universal design approach for learning as opposed to just looking at this accommodation environment. So this one person in the class learns differently. So now we're going to retrofit as opposed to this approach of how might we explore our curriculum so that the way that we're training, the way that we're demonstrating and so forth could be easier for everyone in the room. So that's really, really exciting to hear.

**Stuart (16:22)**
So the way we look at it is we get twenty two students in an intake and we have twenty two individual learning styles. So we have to be adaptable.

**Bridgette (16:30)**
Incredible. Josh, I'm curious to hear from you, really bringing the youth perspective here as well. What supports help build youth confidence and successfully transition into trades environments?

**Joshua (16:43)**
What I've seen since I've been involved with Skills Canada NL and the Youth Apprenticeship Summer Program, besides our countless classroom presentations, early hands-on experience, strong mentorship, supportive employers, and especially clear information about apprenticeship pathways, they help build confidence in especially the youth that were having involvement with junior high, high school, early, post-secondary. Programs like ours give students the opportunity to develop skills, gain workplace experience and see themselves succeed in the skilled trades at an early age. So super important.

**Bridgette (17:14)**
Thank you. Carmine, is there anything that you would like to add to the conversation in terms of if we want these apprenticeship pathways to work for a wider range of learners and future tradespeople, what does that actually require?

**Carmine (17:27)**
I think Stuart touched upon it. I want to add a little bit more. Let me just pull the thread of the sweater. I always do that on my sweaters. One thing that is interesting. Earlier I talked about this idea we don't have a coordinated approach. Right now we're having a discussion with IDEA. They've been funded, say by government to provide research and this information is intended to help the stakeholders. But here's the problem: the information is there. I will bet as there's no hair on my head, Skill Trades Ontario, other provincial bodies like Skill Trades Ontario don't even know the information that's been done by organizations like IDEA.

So this is one of the biggest issues that I see. We're funding this great research. The feds are funding it. The province is funding it, but it's not getting to the individuals that could actually get some real change.

Now, I don't know if I answered your question, but that's what I really, really feel about that.

**Bridgette (18:22)**
No, I appreciate the candidness and I think that many of the listeners today will appreciate it as well because this isn't something for, you know, just employers or just educators. It really is everybody that's a part of our ecosystem that needs to come together so that all of the great work that's being done around creating that awareness is coming across the whole system.

**Carmine (18:46)**
Bridgette, can I add something? You know, earlier I think Stuart said or someone said that they bring in social workers. If you really, really want to get educators to open their eyes about the trades, take a tour of a nuclear power plant. And then they will see these are building trades workers working on $15 billion units, putting these very complicated parts together, the skills you need for that, that automatically would change the perception of what the building trades does. So a very simple thing like that, or in a consstruction site, would change perception.

**Bridgette (19:20)**
Right. Stuart, do you have something you'd like to add?

**Stuart (19:23)**
Pulling on that same sweater thread that Carmine mentioned. I think everybody has the best of intentions when it comes to neurodiverse learners. We think we're doing great things. Like look at us, we did this. And we had two students a couple of terms ago that were dyslexic.

So I went out and I bought this font that is supposed to be good for dyslexia. And I redid a whole bunch of PowerPoints and I put them together and I put them in a binder. And when the class started, I went over to these two kids and said, Here, these should be a lot easier for you, thinking I was helping. Well, my intention was good, but I

just singled those two students out. And everybody's Well, how come they get this and we get that? And you don't realize it until I mean

I'm a sheet metal worker by trade. I didn't go to university to understand psychology and learning techniques. We're self-taught. So I think in a lot of cases, we also have to educate everybody else. The neurodiverse people already know they're neurodiverse. We don't need to point that out. It's getting them to feel comfortable in admitting that they have a learning disability. I had a kid in the seventh week come to me and say, Well, I have a learning disability. I'm like, I have a week left. Like I

I don't know what to do. So now we're prompting them, you know, a month before class starts, we send out an email saying, hey, if you have a learning disability, please let me know. It's discreet. I need to work with you. I want to be able to make sure you have proper accommodations. I want to see you succeed. My motto's always been, I'm here to build you up, not tear you down. And now we're getting the buy-in. They're starting, you know, their their co-workers are talking. They're saying, you know, like they really take the time with you.

We've got guys that will tutor them if they need it. We've got a bunch of more resources. So it's getting them to be comfortable and not singling them out. And we were able to change right in midstream and change that. So just again pulling on Carmen's thread there.

**Bridgette (21:02)**
Loving this metaphor and really appreciate that insight as well. I remember back when I was in school and I had a learning plan at some point, being pointed to sit in the back of the classroom at a table by myself because I learned a little different than the other kids. And you know, that story is not unique. That story is really common for a lot of neurodivergent folks or folks who learn different ways. So having that transparency around

If I say something or if I need to learn a different way, what happens next is so powerful because, like you said, many folks know what they need, but there can be that unknown of what's gonna happen if I say something. Because, there is a whole social component to all of this as well.

Valerie, I would love to hear from you on this question and conversation. I do have some curiosities specifically that we'll get to next, but first if there's anything you'd like to add to the conversations we've been having so far.

**Valerie (22:00)**
Absolutely. So Carmine and Stuart passed me the thread to the sweater. So I'm going to pull on it too. I've worked in this space of pre-apprenticeship and apprenticeship since 2011. And a lot of the things that we hear right now about disability or challenges or barriers, I'm gonna tell you since then, not a lot has changedd in an overall effort, a consistent overall leadership effort for systemic

changes. So back in 2013, I had developed a pre-apprenticeship program funded by the provincial government in welding and plumbing for women.

That program had women starting at 17 years of age up to 55 years of age, all taking it at the same time. Indigenous, non-indigenous, racialized, individuals with abilities and disabilities. I like to call them superpowers, quite frankly, when we have autistic individuals in our training centers, because they think differently and it makes me think differently and through another perspective that I hadn't envisioned before.

Right. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. So giving you an example about that first pre-apprenticeship class for women, we had one young lady in our class who was deaf, had a very strict policy, no cell phones in the classroom. Here's the problem. She utilized that cell phone to text notes down so she could communicate with people. So do we make an exception for one person or do we take a look at our policy?

And adjust our policy.

Because now one person has one thing, but nobody else is allowed to do it. So we're again creating a distance between equality and equity for everyone and singling out one individual. What we actually did was we invested some money into Dragon Naturally Speaking software, installed it on the instructor's laptops, gave them Bluetooth devices, they trained the software to understand their vocabulary, their words, their phraseology.

And they would utilize that in the classroom when they were teaching. So the whole lecture would go up on the screen for everybody to read, not just one person. For everyone to read. So the idea was not just only at that point, it was so that this individual could participate fully in the classroom section of it.

And hear the same thing that everybody else was hearing by reading what was being said in real time, we found out that we could download and save those lectures. And everybody got a copy of every lecture in email. So without having somebody in there that caused us to actually reflect on what we were doing, we never would have realized the benefit that by making this small investment into the software actually served everyone. And what I want to say is that

By the end of this 24-week program, it became very clear to us that this young lady was not the person with the disability. We were. We were. She could communicate just fine. We didn't know how to understand her. And by the end of that six months, 85% of the women in her class learned how to sign.

**Bridgette (24:43)**
That's really such a wonderful example and such a testament as well. Again, of having that diversity led to an improvement in the whole program, where I'm sure that folks that, maybe hadn't disclosed, that may have been in that room anyways, were able to learn and receive a lot more value by having that available in that other format as well. So really

Incredible story. Thank you for sharing that with us.

**Valerie (25:10)**
If I can, Bridgette, I'll add that this young woman went through all three levels of her trade school and she was top of her class every time.

It's just a testament to what an individual is capable of doing if they have the support and the people who believe in them there to make sure their success is equal to everybody else's.

**Bridgette (25:26)**
Thank you so much for sharing that story. Carmine is there something that you would like to add that?

**Carmine (25:32)**
Valerie's example and Stuart's example about not singling the person out.

But when it comes to accommodation, almost in a way of a subtle punishment, we're gonna single the person out. I find it really, really problematic. In this country, Every province since January of nineteen eighty-five.

amalgamated all their policies to follow the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, the Equality Provisions. But yet in 2026 we are still talking about accommodations, how to make it equitable, how to create open workplaces. And we've had the legislation from April 1982, every province is from 1985.

The problem is Valerie said, it's not with the people that have the disabilities or the impairments. Problem is us. So we have the tools to do it.

**Bridgette (26:21)**
I think that part of what makes that difficult as well is that oftentimes the accommodations that are being discussed are not necessarily complicated or not necessarily expensive. But like we've been talking about today, there are adjustments and adaptations to our learning delivery style so that they're more accessible to everybody in the room.

And sometimes, again, like coming back to the youth conversation, there's a whole social layer to this. There's a whole stigma layer to this. It's not just about technical accommodations. There can be a cultural component too.

Stuart, you had something to share?

**Stuart (26:59)**
Well, when you talk about systemic practices, I think back to when I was in grade school. And I know it's changed quite a bit since then, but when I went through high school, we had three different levels. We had basic, general, and then we had advanced. And if you couldn't keep up in the advanced class, they didn't ask, they just moved you to general. And if you couldn't keep up in the general, they were like, you need to go here. And

It was such a different learning curve from basic to advanced.

I'm a pretty educated person. And I think I was back then. Teachers just couldn't be bothered, didn't have time, didn't have the training on how to teach students that had, I mean, I probably had you know undiagnosed ADHD. But if they had taken five more minutes to explain something, I probably would have got it. I was a C student in math and going through high school and I got into sheet metal.

Which is unbelievably heavy in trigonometry. Well, that's not something you learn in basic or even a lot in general math in high school. But I know trig better than 50% of the people on the planet. So I would have succeeded in high school in math if a teacher would have taken more time or explained it in words that made more sense to me. When we teach math here, we use real-world examples. This is why you need to know this. This is how you're going to use it. And it made sense.

Because honestly, nobody cared what time train A left the station and what time train B was going to get there. You have an arrival chart. It tells you what time, like who cares? But trig, that's important. So, like if teachers had taken more time to explain it in real world, I think we wouldn't be where we are today. If that makes sense.

**Bridgette (28:28)**
It absolutely does. And I definitely had a good laugh. I think some of us did in the room about these arbitrary, hilarious math questions from our childhood of how many carrots can Sally eat if she's traveling on a train at 30 miles an hour. So I think many folks that are listening can relate to that too. I would love to bridge us forward into how we can start to move from intention into action. We've really identified some practical, feasible ways that employers, educators, everyone in the ecosystem can start to come together to make that change and that change isn't complicated and is so meaningful and so important from all different reasons and vantage points here.

Valerie, we've talked about creating apprenticeship pathways that support diverse learners, drawing on your work and the development of CSA Z30124.

What have you learned about the conditions that help people not only enter apprenticeship programs, but also complete them? And I know that we've talked about this a little bit with the learning environment.

**Valerie (29:35)**
What I'll say is that as the chair of the technical committee that developed the national standard on equity, diversity, inclusion, and accessibility into apprenticeship programs, we did something that had never been done before. It took us three and a half years to develop the standard. It included individuals representing 10 different provinces, one different territory, eight different

provincial apprenticeship government bodies and two federal government representatives amongst employers, trade unions, community groups and and so there were forty six individuals who dedicated their time to making this. And I remember our very first meeting and everybody's very quiet and they're all shy. We're all there and nobody really knows what we're gonna be doing because it's never been done before. And I started the meeting by saying, Okay, I'll start and I'll start with this question. When does an apprenticeship

Begin.

Does it begin in high school? When we're working with programs like OEAP here in Ontario? does it begin with co-op placements? Does it begin with pre-apprenticeship programs for individuals to start? And we very soon realize that it's the whole gambit. It's everything. So then breaking it down into the different segments of what an apprenticeship actually is, what it involves, what it entails, the trade school, the on the job, the mentorship.

The diversity that we're looking for and moving towards in our workforces, this standard never became more important than the time we were called upon to write it. And it is a national standard. Its biggest drawback is that it's voluntary. So it doesn't need to be implemented, but it is the most significant document that we have in Canada with regards to ensuring safe, equitable workspaces for everyone

in apprenticeship. So it's not like the employer section is not going to apply to the trade school or the college who's delivering the educational component. So there's a separate section in there for them to take a look at and address. For employers, how are we actually engaging with people? What are we advertising when we're looking for people? For unions who do a fantastic job and encompass the actual signing of the apprenticeship

contract to support the individual from start to finish. And the very different dynamic of a changing workforce. That's what we need to identify here as we move more and more towards less homogeneous workforces. I'll put it that way. We need to start recognizing that the way it was worked for 120 years, but that is changing rapidly.

We need to move everybody forward. And the only way I can see that truly happening is through systemic change within internal policies, processes, and procedures. We need to make these things mandatory. So while this particular standard is a voluntary standard on a national level.

our organization at Indigenous Skills Employment Apprenticeship and Development, we make it mandatory for our partners to implement that standard in what they are doing when they work with us. Because we hold ourselves to that standard, right? To put it in a different perspective, one in five Canadians is known to have a mental health issue of some sort.

And those are just the numbers that are being reported and recorded. I'm going to hazard a guess and say it's probably more like two in five because people will not report due to stigma, due to a whole host of other reasons and embarrassment and whatever, and I'm not good enough. So we need to take a look at that psychological safety factor inside our workplaces, inside our educational places. And we need to make sure that we are addressing that hazard.

At the source. And that means making it non-existent for everyone. For everyone. Because while we may be speaking about neurodivergent or individuals who have disabilities, some of them I like to call superpowers, as I said, we have legislation all over the place: the Occupational Health and Safety Act, the Employment Standards Act, the Human Rights Commission.

Which actually lists disability as one of those protected grounds for individuals. That list should tell us that when we hear things like an employer's duty to responsibility to accommodate to the point of undue hardship.

Undue hardship means if it's going to force your organization to buckle, then you don't need to accommodate. That's undue hardship. Simply providing somebody with an additional 15-minute break when they are stressed over something so that they can regroup and regain their composure is not undue hardship. It's compassion. It's recognizing the importance that everybody matters, right?

I think that's key. So taking a look at our internal policies and processes as leaders and organizations and making sure that we are providing those psychologically safe workplaces to welcome a diverse workforce is extremely important. Otherwise, we're only looking at part of the issue to address instead of the full causal effect.

**Bridgette (34:21)**
Wow, what a mic drop moment, Valerie. That was incredible.

Thank you so much for sharing all of that. Incredible insights in there. Carmine, I'm curious if there's anything that you would like to add to that.

**Carmine (34:34)**
You made me go right after Valerie. Thank you. Great. Thank you. Everything that Valerie said, and I love how she brought in the mental health aspect. I'll tell you what my biggest concern, as you can tell, I have a lot of concerns. Training center does everything right. They

Revamp their program. They make sure that Carmine gets all the opportunities. Then Carmine goes into a workplace. It's the wild, wild west. That's my biggest concern. And I'm seeing that with mental health. So what's happening is.

You take Carmine who's struggling, his backpack of life is heavy. Stuart gets involved. Maybe Valerie gets involved. Carmine is dropped into a de novo treatment center. Carmine does his six weeks. Then Carmine is dropped into that same nasty, unrelenting environment that's not supportive, not recovery friendly. So

I think when we're having this discussion, we really, really need to look at not only getting Carmine into the program, making sure that it's not just recruitment. How can we implement standards at the workplace that are recovery-friendly, that follow accommodations, that follow basic legislation? So I think it's a two-pronged approach if you want to have long-term retention. Because what I'm seeing is

As soon as they leave the hall and they're dropped into the environment, that environment eats them up, and there's no such thing as a recovery-friendly and accommodating workplace. So that's part of the discussion. If this is part of a coordinated strategy, then you could actually get into what I really think that's important. And you mentioned it. What does

Inclusive workplace design really mean. So it needs to be part of a strategy.

**Bridgette (36:19)**
Absolutely. We do all need to come together. And I'm really glad that you picked back up the thread Valerie shared as well on mental health, because

it is so important. And many folks don't realize that there are many mental health-related disabilities. So depression and low mood is a disability, anxiety disorder is a disability, bipolar disorder. There are many mental health-related disabilities.

But it can also be episodic as well. So it doesn't mean that someone is always navigating a certain disability, but there may be certain times in the year or certain experiences how they're coming to work or how they're coming to the classroom may be a little bit different. And substance use disorder is another one as well.

So it's important that while we talk about neurodiversity and we talk about disability, that we also recognize how many different types of disabilities there are, that those disabilities can all look and come across in different ways because we're intersectional people. And there's a whole cultural component of it as well. So I really appreciate both the insights that you and Valerie have shared there. I know we've got some other insights.

Stuart.

Let's start with you and then Valerie, I'll come to you next.

**Stuart (37:32)**
So I'm gonna stay on that same thread. I had the pleasure of working with Carmine on building mental health and construction. So 24 years ago, somebody in our local saw the need for mental health for addiction and counseling, and we started it here. It's grown into 19 locals now across Ontario.

We actually do a lot of mental health training in the day school program. It's the hardest course I have to fill. We offer mental health training here at the local. And every sister in the trade has taken mental health training. The men, because women are wiser. I will say this on record women are wiser. Women know when there's a problem, they know.

That they need to talk to somebody, they will reach out far quicker than a man will. What do we do? We slap some dirt on it and we just keep going. I know I'm never going to get the senior journey persons coming in for mental health training. I can't fix it from the top down, but we can rebuild it from the bottom up. And eventually all those people will age out and you will have a healthy workforce. One of the things that Smart did, which is my international.

Is they adopted a zero tolerance policy. If you get caught sexually harassing somebody, you get caught uttering a racial slur, you get caught doing all these things. It's zero tolerance. It's automatic expulsion from the union. You will never be a sheet metal worker, roofer, sheeter decker in the trade again. I love that. I'm so proud of that because somebody had to take a stance and say, no more. We've also got

the diversity inclusivity training as well so now we're incorporating that into the day school program we're gonna build strong apprentices with awareness of their mental health what's appropriate and they're gonna start drawing the line in the sand and you will see change within our local or our union anyway. I want to be leading the curve, not being behind the curve.

**Bridgette (39:10)**
Wow, I feel like we could have a whole second podcast episode just on this thread that we've all been pulling at.

I definitely have some thoughts on this, but I do really want to hear from Valerie as well. One thing I suppose I'll share is that for men navigating mental health and you know, my father's been in the skill trades for a really long time. He's also new to Canada.

There's so many different factors why someone might not feel comfortable to say something or ask for help. Some of those can be generational learned factors, some of them can also be cultural factors. If we go into the environment after creating all of this great work from the top up, but the bottom isn't.

a psychologically safe workplace and folks are getting microaggressions or slurs after coming back to work from what they've been navigating. You know, we can only do so much. So Valerie, I would love to hear from you as we start to move towards the end of this incredible episode,

what you'd like add to that thought.

**Valerie (40:09)**
Thanks Stuart. You have hit something so core to who I am with the zero tolerance that your local union stands for. It's not enough just to say something is zero tolerance, right? We need to actually make sure that we are actively enforcing that in our workplaces so that it matters. Words matter, action enforces our intention.

When we talk about women versus men taking mental health, first aid and awareness and training, women are 10 times more likely than men to ask for help. So that tells you something. Right? And again, it's not a slam against men by any stretch of the imagination. I think it's got a lot to do with the culture of the man is strong and

You know, you don't cry and you can handle this. I have a saying that I use in all of these spaces, especially when we start talking about invisible disabilities, and it's this: when you have enough, you build a longer table, not a higher fence. Okay. We need everybody to be able to find the comfort and the resources and the help that they rightfully deserve.

And need. To be whole all the way around, right? A third of our life is spent at work. And if you understand the psychology of our minds and the chemical reactions in our body, you can't just leave home at home. You can't just leave work at work. It's impossible. We are not built that way. We are not neurologically wired that way. And we carry this with us everywhere that we go.

How we manage it on our own is a different thing. But putting systemic change into our workplaces, whether it's a union, whether it's an educational facility or a community organization like ours, there is no decision that I make in a leadership role. That I do not ask the question, how is this going to affect my team? Every single time. Because it matters.

They matter. This work doesn't happen if they're not supported. Right. So when we measure this out into a broader spectrum of how do we do this, we need to recognize that our own ability to facilitate change in a safe environment, to handle these psychological hazards that are everywhere in our workplaces, It needs to come from a management prevention aspect.

We need to treat it just like any other hazard we would in our workplaces, like working at heights or manual material handling or whatever it is. Just because you can't see the psychological hazard doesn't mean it's not there, and it doesn't mean it can't be or shouldn't be addressed. So I think that that's one of the things I'd really like to pull back on. We have all of this legislation, the Occupational Health and Safety Act, regulations across every sector, standards, guidelines. It's there. But all that is, it's the minimum -

requirement that an employer must provide the minimum. Nowhere in any of that legislation does it say you shall not do more than the minimum. Right. And that's what we can all do together. That's how we're going to facilitate the change we need to see.

**Bridgette (42:58)**
I sincerely hope that everyone that's listening to this episode today is feeling as moved as all of us are on the call to realize that even if you are one educator, one employer, one person that's listening, that you yourself taking some of the steps that have been discussed can make a huge impact on the folks that are around you.

I'd love to transition us into some rapid insights as we come towards the end of our episode today. So let's do one practical change that would make apprenticeship pathways more successful or accessible. And one thing you hope to see change in the skill trades over the next five years. Stuart, let's start off with you.

**Stuart (43:40)**
Thank you. I have a quote that I really like. When apprentices know they're being supported and not judged, they're more likely to ask questions, learn from their mistakes, and continue their improvement. That's kind of our motto here. We make them feel welcome, we make them feel comfortable. Everybody learns at a different pace. We try to tell them don't compare yourself to this one or that one. You'll get it.

It just sometimes takes a little bit of time to get before it clicks. And as an instructor, training director, whatever you want call me, my favorite moment is when I see that light go on and you know they got it. And once they got it, they're on their own and they soar. It's phenomenal. The biggest change I would like to see in the next five years, it's a big ask, acceptance.

We talked about mental health. Mental health's an invisible injury. If somebody breaks a leg, everybody's quick to open a door, grab them a chair. It's automatic. That person needs help. Let's help them.

So many people don't understand mental health. So acceptance and getting rid of the stigma of neurodiversity, mental health, I would love to see that go away. But that's a big ask for five years.

**Bridgette (44:42)**
An important ask, nonetheless.

And I'll also share that we've been talking about neurodiversity, we've been talking about mental health and different types of disabilities. Many of these, as it's been sort of circled around, are not visible disabilities, meaning that you can't look at someone or assess their behavior as a coworker and see if they have a disability or not. So there can be a lot of bias there as well, coming back to your broken leg metaphor.

Just because you can't see something doesn't mean that someone isn't navigating something else. Coming back to our rapid insights, Josh, I'm gonna pass it over to you next.

**Joshua (45:19)**
Yeah, so one of the main things that Skills Canada and the and the YASP program promotes, and we're all about expanding early exposure. You know, it's important to get students, youth, early adults included in the skill trades that they want to pursue earlier rather than later. And besides that, strengthening mentorship to help the youth transition with confidence.

In terms of the next five years, more diverse participation in the skill trades and workplaces. It's important to make culture included all the time rather than just making it an initiative for a period of time, and relation to Stuart.

One of my favorite quotes is nothing changes if nothing changes. So super important to make those changes now so that they're not just an initiative, that they're a cultural change.

**Bridgette (46:06)**
Well said, well said. Carmine, would love to pass the same question over to you. And optionally, if there's a quote that you would like to share as well, but no pressure.

**Carmine (46:15)**
Yeah. Well, I can't think of one. But what I do think, an another issue that's Valerie talked about it, Josh just talked about it we need to move away from the bro culture we have this manosphere in construction,

I'm really tired of this bro culture. You got to be socially smooth. You need to be emotionally detached, hyper confident. You got to look at someone that's weak and needle them and knock them down.

So if we can break that, then we're gonna deal with the mental health. Because they're the bros, the bro guys don't want to go to the doctor. We break that down. Not only are we gonna get neurodiversity to not only be in the trade, get to a pathway and complete, we're gonna also help.

the people that need mental health, substance use, going to the doctor may detect other health effects. So I think if we can break that bro culture.

We may actually be in a better spot. I know it's a very simple thing that I'm talking about.

We need to deal with it. And I'm glad that Stuart has no tolerance. They should be gone. But that's my biggest ask in the next five years.

**Bridgette (47:20)**
Wow, another really important ask. I think all of them have been absolutely, but I really appreciate you leading us through the impact of us not doing that and not

addressing that over the next five years as well. And

there's also so much that's done in how we respond to when these things happen on the floor and when they happen in

the workplace as well.

Valerie, last but not least, I would love to hear from you one practical change and one thing that you hope to see change in the next five years.

**Valerie (47:53)**
I'll start by saying this about apprenticeship. The misconception that the individuals who are apprentices or journey persons are less than because they didn't go to college or university is absolute rubbish. And I'd like to remind our listeners that many compulsory trades are five years long before they get that red seal. That's actually longer than most undergraduate degrees in university.

And that should say something. You spend five years learning and attending trade school in order to get that coveted red seal license and be endorsed. Why should that be any different? Like I I always label these as professional careers, which is what they are. My daughter went to university for five years, bound and determined that she was going to be a lawyer, graduated with high distinction and a double major in criminology and political science, and three weeks later decided she wanted to be an electrician.

So that's what she's doing now. She's in her third year of electrical apprenticeship. My son didn't know what he wanted to do. And he did a tri trade actually with the the building trades, tomorrow's trades program. And he came home one day and said, Mom, I want to be a bricklayer. And I thought, finally, the thousands of dollars I spent on Lego on this kid growing up was paying off, right? He is

now in his fourth year, and he is 24 years old.

Okay. The biggest problem he has is that he maxes out his retirement pension every year and has to pay an additional tax on it. What a horrible thing to have when you're 24. You're maxing out your retirement pension every year. Good for you, right? It is so much more than the stigmas that we've attached to it. Both of my children, my kids are extremely happy working in the trades, and that says something. What I'd like to see change.

Is that we move past having to have discussions like this and that they're no longer necessary, right? I don't think we should have voluntary standards when it comes to things like EDIA. I think these need to be mandatory. And if the government isn't gonna make them mandatory, then we need to make them mandatory within our workplaces because that way it has backing and power, okay?

And we can actually be able to say, we're here to support you. And this is what we've done to make sure that that happens across the board. But I'd like to end with an analogy, if I can, to try and put it all together the way it sits in my mind is that, you know, you fly to the east coast of Canada. I'm gonna use Newfoundland, Josh, just for you. When it's the middle of winter and you get off your plane and you get to your hotel and the stairs are covered with snow.

And the ramp is covered in snow. What do you shovel first? Do you shovel the stairs first? Or do you shovel the wheelchair ramp first? I shovel the wheelchair ramp first because everyone can use that.

Okay. So moving away from the we have to do this for you to we're doing this for us as in the collective community of us, I think is where I'd love to see this be in five years.

**Bridgette (50:34)**
What an incredible note to leave off on.

**Bridgette (50:38)**
What we're hearing is that apprenticeship systems are not just about providing opportunities. They're about designing environments where people can actually succeed. For youth with disabilities, including neurodivergent youth, youth with intellectual disabilities, and youth navigating mental health challenges, inclusion is not about getting through the door. It's also about the pathway itself.

And how it's designed to support different ways of learning, working, and contributing. Standards like the CSAZ03:24 help organizations translate commitments into practice by creating clearer expectations for accessible, equitable, and inclusive apprenticeship systems. Because when we strengthen apprenticeship pathways, we strengthen the future of the skilled trades.

Thank you so much to our guests Carmine Tiano, Valerie Vanderwyk, Joshua Ivany, and Stuart Simpson for joining us and sharing your expertise. I'd also like to thank our funders. This podcast is a part of the 4DY initiative, developed by IDEA and funded by the New Frontiers and Research Fund, Transformation Stream, and the Youth Employment and Skills Strategy YESS program.

At Employment and Social Development Canada.

In the next episode, we'll build on this conversation by shifting from apprenticeship pathways and into the workplace itself. We'll explore the ASC standard on employment and inclusive workplaces and how employment standards and best practices can help organizations strengthen policies, processes, and everyday practices to create more inclusive opportunities for a broader range of workers.

That's all for now. We'll see you next time.