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Francis: Happy. Friday. Everyone. Welcome to the idea. Speaker Series. My name is Francis Fung, and I'm the lead on engagement for idea, and I'm also the national manager for reputation and clinical services at March of Dimes, Canada. I'm filling in today for our regular host, Dan Samos, who's an assistant professor in employment relation at Queen's University, and who's also involved in our idea project.

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Francis: Before we begin, I want to let you know that we're recording this session, and the recordings will be made available on our idea website.

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Francis: Today we have closed caption and French interpretations available for you. You should be able to find it in the Zoom Platform.

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Francis: For those of you who may not know much about idea. It is a social innovation laboratory, focused on helping create stronger and more diverse labor markets that include persons with disabilities through knowledge. To practice idea is the acronym for inclusive design for employment access.

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Francis: Before we start. I'd like to share a land acknowledgement relevant to the idea. National Office in Toronto.

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Francis: where the National office of the Idea Social Innovation Laboratory is situated has for thousands of years been the traditional land of the Huron, Wendet, the Seneca, and most recently the Mississaugas of the Credit. Today this land is still home to many indigenous people from across Turtle Island, and we are grateful to have the opportunity to conduct our work on it.

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Francis: This acknowledgement is relevant to Toronto, however, because we are gathered for this meeting. Virtually we suggest you think about the communities in your respective locations as well.

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Francis: This Monthly Speaker Series serves as an opportunity to hear the latest about current topics in the work, disability policy arena and learn about activities underway, within and beyond idea.

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Francis: Today we will start with a presentation, and then followed by questions from the panel that we have today.

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Francis: You can type your questions in the Q&A box at any time throughout the presentation, and we'll try to answer as many questions as possible at the end of the webinar.

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Francis: This is our 3rd webinar focus on the accessibility standards, Canada employment standards and the implementation guidance. That idea is developing.

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Francis: Our presenters for today are all on the implementation guidance team.

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Francis: We have Dr. Emil, Tompa, Peter Field, and Andy Livingston.

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Francis: Emil Tompa is the executive director of idea. He's also a senior scientist at the Institute for Work and Health, and an associate professor at Mcmaster University.

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Francis: Peter Field is a consultant in the area on human resources, inclusion, access to library systems for persons with disabilities and safe sports.

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Francis: In 2019 he retired from a 28 year career in the Federal public services, with the last 12 years working at the director level.

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Francis: Andy Liftingstone is the CEO of dexterity consulting. He's passionate about dispute, resolution accessible for all his expertise and mediation skills and work on accessibility and accommodation issues are highly sought after. He also has experience in curriculum development.

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Francis: So welcome Emil, Peter and Andy, and over to you.

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Emile Tompa: Okay, thanks, Francis, for that introduction, and, as Francis mentioned, I'll start off with a a short presentation before we get into a bit of a panel discussion, just to give you some background about the the work we're doing. And then that'll be the platform for our discussion as well. So

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Emile Tompa: the the employment standard guidance that we're developing is going to be titled employment, accessibility, a practical guide for workplace parties, right? And it it is based on providing some guidance for for the accessibility standards. Canada standard on employment which had a version released. Just this past month. The 1st version was out in the fall of last year, and an updated version was released last month.

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Emile Tompa: And I provide links in the subsequent slide. We have listed here. The the folks that that are involved in in the implementation guidance on this next slide.

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Emile Tompa: A bit more detail about our team. So a great team of diverse expertise coming to the table, a number of us who are actually part of the development of the standard. We sit on the the technical committee, the standard, and so affiliations are listed here.

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Emile Tompa: So the project team includes accessibility experts from different disciplines, some of whom are also persons with lived experiences, members, include policy advisors, human resource, expertise systems, thinkers and academics who have worked in this space for for quite a number of years, including myself.

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Emile Tompa: Several of the team members, as I mentioned, have also been involved in the Employment Standards Technical Committee.

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Emile Tompa: so the standard itself is called the employment standard. The details are listed on this slide. As I mentioned, a revised version of it was released in May. The link is provided here as well, and the standard is a really cutting edge standard, the 1st of its kind in the world. It really envisions a work environment that is accessible, inclusive barrier, free discrimination, free for all workers, including persons with disabilities.

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Emile Tompa: And it draws on the social model of disability. So we're trying to take it away from medicalization of disability, more towards thinking about the environment that we have in workplaces and in our communities and in the world more generally, and thinking about how we can take down those barriers so that everybody can participate actively and be, you know, integral members of organizations in the world of work.

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Emile Tompa: So it really does focus on removing those barriers and providing accommodations, and not always with a need for disclosure, really thinking about, how can we make the world inclusive work, the world of work inclusive by design, so that there's not always a requirement to disclose, you know, because it's it's inclusive from 1st principles.

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Emile Tompa: This is a list of all the technical committee members. I really want to give them kudos. It's a great fabulous team that I've been involved with actively for for a number of years. There's all kinds of expertise on this committee. So I want to just give them

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Emile Tompa: some air time, because sometimes you forget about who's behind the scenes working on this. But there was. It was a really fabulous team, and we continue to work together. Up until the the last release of of the standard. That's up.

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Emile Tompa: Currently

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Emile Tompa: the core modules of the standard. If you haven't had a chance to look at it. There are listed here. There's 5 core modules or clauses that we call them clause 10 is about structural supports and policy and leadership. Clause 11 is about culture, engagement and education. Clause 12 is about recruitment hiring and onboarding.

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Emile Tompa: Clause 13 is about retention and career development. So those 2 chapters together look at the entire employment journey of persons with disabilities in a particular organization to make sure that that entire experience is inclusive.

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Emile Tompa: and then, in chapter 14 is about development and maintenance of accessibility support systems. So again, the link for the for the standard is there as well.

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Emile Tompa: Now, why is implementation guides needed right in general standards describe the set of requirements that an organization needs to have in place to meet certain expectations. That is the essence of what the standard is about. And in this case it's about being an inclusive employer employer.

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Emile Tompa: whereas implementation, guidance provides advice on the process to to achieve the requirements of the standard. So in kind of a everyday language, you think, tend to think of it as being fixed standard being the what, and and then the implementation guidance about being the how. So the what is the standard? The implementation guys helps you get to complete compliance with that standard. So it's the how to how to kind of process.

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Emile Tompa: And in general, standards are in quite broadly. And so they're meant to be applicable to a large constituency of in this case. Organizations across Canada, regardless of whether they're federally regulated, provincially regulated. You know, private sector, public sector, small, large, whatever sector it is in. So it's quite broadly scoped. So the guidance really assists with contextualizing requirements for a particular organization.

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Emile Tompa: So the guide that we're developing is being designed to support implementation of the standard in different contexts. So we need, we're very cognizant of the fact that different organizations may be in a different situation, not just because of the sector or their size, but they might have done a lot of things already in this space and are starting off at a different point than maybe other organizations. So we it really helps you contextualize and figure out, well, how do I use them.

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Emile Tompa: This standard to to become inclusive by design given where we're at. Currently. So the pro, the implementation process will invariably vary, based on the unique circumstances of an organization.

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Emile Tompa: The core modules of our guidance are listed here. There's 5 of them. The 1st one is about developing an employment accessibility, strategy, strategizing, planning, looking ahead and thinking of what that journey should look like is a good starting point and then creating a new normal through leadership and culture, culture comes up a lot is really critical, and then we go into inclusive recruitment, hiring and onboarding, followed by inclusive retention, promotion, and career development.

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Emile Tompa: and then finally creating and maintaining an accessibility support system.

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Emile Tompa: Emphasis is really given to measurement, evaluation and reporting absolutely critical to know where you're at and where you're going and what progress you're making measurement. Evaluation is absolutely critical. Reporting is also important in some cases for for regulatory requirements and and as well as keeping up with accessibility. Compliance in your in general, within your jurisdictions, you know, helps with the reporting of of where you're at and what you're working towards.

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Emile Tompa: There's some other modules in the guidance as well. So there's 1 on inclusive technology and communications. A critical

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Emile Tompa: challenge is making sure that technology and communications more broadly are accessible for everybody within the organization removing barriers and then accessibility, compliance, and best practices. So that's the reporting part of it.

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Emile Tompa: So this guy will also have a module describing key concepts. We also have some annexes with supplementary information on tools and resources to support implementation so critical pieces that might help, you know, with the implementation might be things such as audit tools, you know.

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Emile Tompa: ways to do, a really good internal scan of your organization, the kinds of questions you should be asking folks and data you should be collecting to to get a better handle on where the key gaps are within your organization. So we'll be putting a bunch of resources in these annexes to help support the process.

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Emile Tompa: So we take a systems level approach to capacity building in in our implementation guidance. And it's also woven into obviously how the standard has been written, because traditionally, maybe, the approach used to address disability inclusion issues within organizations has been about assigning it to a particular person or a team responsible for it within human resources

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Emile Tompa: and organizations often have taken a reactive approach to accommodation needs only addressing them when requests are made. That's like a reactive approach addressing things when they become a challenge and a problem for a person or an organization, whereas the systems approach is really meant to be proactive, you know, considering all the roles and responsibilities across the organization, it considers inputs process, outputs and feedback

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Emile Tompa: and evaluation. Improvement on a continual basis are really critical parts of a systems level approach.

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Emile Tompa: And in the disability inclusion space it's intended to ultimately help an organization become inclusive by design, by building the structures, creating new normals. So that your way of operating is different and always taking that disability, inclusion, and throughout everything the organization does.

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Emile Tompa: So just a little bit more detail about how the management system model works. You start off with policies which play a fundamental role in really setting clear directions for organizations to follow. So policies are essential framework or skeleton of the organization's operational type activities.

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Emile Tompa: Management structures need to be put into place to deliver on those policies. So that's where some of the roles and responsibilities get clarified.

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Emile Tompa: And then it requires planning and a systematic approach to implementing those policies. So to be sure that they they're actually put into practice in the day-to-day activities within the organization.

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Emile Tompa: Emphasis is really given, as I've mentioned already, on measurement of performance against targets to identify areas where that need improvement. The only way you know where the gaps are is by doing some measurement, evaluation, scanning the environment of your workplace to see where there are challenges that need to be addressed.

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Emile Tompa: and then review and learning from those experiences when you go through a cycle of trying to improve things you learn from that. You see, you figure out where we've set some goals. We've achieved them. What else can we think of to work on in the next round? That's where the continual improvement process comes into play.

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Emile Tompa: So continual improvement as you get you're getting a sense of is a really central part of how we're framing our implementation guidance. It's a real center piece where systems change is done through a continual improvement process because it's a journey. Actually, it doesn't happen all at once. You know, you may be starting off

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Emile Tompa: on this journey with a lot of things to get done, and it can't be done all at once. So you have to prioritize and think about what are we going to do in a particular cycle. So continual improvement is really an ongoing effort to refine a particular area of organizational activities through

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Emile Tompa: periodic cycles and specifically thinking in each cycle, you would think about developing plans and targets for that cycle. You implement those plans you measure and evaluate to make sure you're achieving the goals outcomes that you've set for you in that particular cycle. And then acting on findings of the evaluation to ensure those targets are ultimately being met

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Emile Tompa: before you can think about. Okay, that we've got this done. What else can we do in a subsequent round? So that's often framed as a plan? Do check act approach. That's an acronym Pdca that's often used in the world of continual improvement. And it's a common approach to operationalizing that notion of continual improvement processes

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Emile Tompa: and a bit more about continual improvement cycles. You see a diagram here with the the plan, do Check Act. Which of the plan is about establishing improvement objectives. The do is about implementing the plan. The check is about monitor monitoring and evaluating progress. And then the act is about reviewing and taking action to approve

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Emile Tompa: in those areas where you haven't quite met the targets you set set out to do so. An example of of review considerations in this particular space is

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Emile Tompa: do do current recruitment, hiring and onboarding practices provide opportunities for all persons with different types of disabilities to access employment opportunities within the organization, so that that might be something you you want to consider at the front end. If if you're just starting off in the journey, think of is our recruitment process inclusive. And then what policies and procedures, roles and responsibilities and resources and skills need to be in place to ensure inclusive practices in the recruitment process?

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Emile Tompa: Okay? And the next steps for for implementation guidance is that we are looking to get a beta draft out of this guidance for public review in the early summer. So so that's our target to have something out there that we can get some feedback on hopefully in this beta draft, which we will then take that feedback and review it, and fine tune the guidance with ideally the hope to finalize guidance by the late summer.

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Emile Tompa: And I just want to acknowledge that this initiative of the implementation guidance is being funded by idea which we get our core funding from the government of Canada and specifically new frontiers in Research fund the transformation stream who has funded us for a period of 7 years.

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Emile Tompa: And that's it for my presentation. So maybe we can move on to a panel discussion.

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Francis: Well, thank you, Emil. For the the information presented. So we're gonna move into the panel discussions now, and there have been some questions submitted. So maybe we can go through the questions one by one, and then, and the the presenters and the panelists here can't answered, interns.

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Francis: So the 1st question we have here is that you? You presented a a guidance

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Francis: for the employment standards, and the questions related to whether the guidance would be different, for small and medium sized employers versus the larger ones.

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Emile Tompa: Did you want to go first.st

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Peter: Yeah, I can. I can answer that one. So the short answer is, yes. I think the important thing to remember here, based on what Emil presented is you can't do everything at once right, or it'll be very difficult to do everything at once. So we've kind of

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Peter: worked at the

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Peter: the guidance from that point and the the actual document. So it starts off by doing a scan to see you know where exactly you need to do the work and then doing some planning from there. Now that that relates obviously to the size of the organization, right? If you've if you're a large organization, you've got lots of resources. A big Hr team behind you.

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Peter: a strong management team. Then you might. You might tackle a number of different things at the beginning. But if you're a smaller organization and you find out in your scan well, there's really only 2 or 3 things that we need to do here. Then you try, probably try to approach it differently. So it it would be approached differently, depending on the size of your organization. But that

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Peter: initial scan is really important to determine where, where are the gaps? And and how do we want to plan to start.

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Emile Tompa: Yeah, I I totally agree. Actually, I mean, size is an important consideration. But I think there's other variables as well. Each organization is in unique place.

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Emile Tompa: it may be sector, you know it. It may be you're you're a not for profit, you know. You maybe for profit, different geographies. So through the labor market that that you're confronting it may be different as well. So I I think context is absolutely critical thing to take into consideration because each organization is unique, and the journey that they will take to to

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Emile Tompa: implementing the standard and becoming inclusive by design will be distinct, based on where they're currently at. And they're both their their situational characteristics. Some organization may have done quite a bit of work in this space and are starting the formality of implementing the guidance, the standard in a different spot. And and

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Emile Tompa: yeah

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Emile Tompa: got things under their belt already. So so we're taking that into consideration, the way we're developing the guidance to be sure that anybody can pick it up and and find themselves in it, and and get the the kind of

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Emile Tompa: best of practices of how to start the process formally, regards to what their context is. Right. So we're taking into consideration that context is a critical factor. And each journey is unique.

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Andy: Yeah, following on from what Emil said, I think it's important for the

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Andy: for the authors that each business can relate to it on some level, depending on what time, where they are in the process, and what they've accomplished, and and also that the tools that are provided. You know the appendices, and some of the things that are going to be provided in the guide

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Andy: to help businesses. Businesses flourish is the way that each of those tools can is are relatable, regardless of where they are in the process and what size they are. So I think it's important that we we

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Andy: look at the the guide from all those lenses, and so that any business, as a meal eloquently said, can pick it up and relate to it. And and it's usable for them. So it's practical as well as you know, relatable.

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Emile Tompa: Yeah. And and and just to carry on from that, it's really you articulate. Very well, Andy, I mean you. And I think Peter mentioned to one of the 1st things an organization may do and we're encouraging them to do is is doing kind of internal scan, of of assessing formally what their situation is, and where those priority gaps that need to be addressed. So the guidance is helping you do that, knowing that you're gonna maybe find something different than another organization picking it up. So so

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Emile Tompa: part of the front end is just contextualizing where you're at and what you need to prioritize. And and that's going to be very context. Specific.

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Andy: And also realizing that it's not one size, fits all, and everybody's journey to that point is different.

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Andy: And and.

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Peter: You know what.

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Andy: It may be different, moving forward as well.

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Peter: Yeah, one thing that that could be really interesting here. And this is more sort of a brainstorming idea. Here is that

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Peter: as Emil said in this presentation, the orientation of this standard is is to build an inclusive workplace. Right? So and it's that kind of systems approach. So it's not taking sort of disability issues as a single problem. I I don't really mean that. But a single challenge that you you wanna resolve. But taking that systems approach to inclusivity. So

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Peter: the meal.

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Peter: you talked about organizations already being in a certain place, but what we already having done some work and and maybe work for years. And I'm wondering how this might be different. A systems approach as opposed to a more transactional approach that people may have taken in the past. Yeah.

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Emile Tompa: Yeah, yeah, exactly what what the intent is both of the standard. I think in our implementation, guidance is creating a new normal where it is a different way of operating where, where, every time you're doing things, you're thinking about that disability. And so you, it becomes a new way of thinking and a new way of operating, so so that you're inclusive by design, so that

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Emile Tompa: people don't have to necessarily disclose, you know, because you provide the flexibility. You provide the the the supports people need. Because that's just. You know people. Everybody's different, too, as organizations are different. People are different. And and the way they work is different. And so you create that flexibility, that inclusivity from the front end.

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Peter: Yeah. And an organization might say, for example, well, we've been doing this for years. I mean, we're representative, that. Why? Why do we need to do anything different, and and being representative numbers wise, is very different than building a culture building a culture that has this this approach.

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Emile Tompa: Exactly.

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Francis: Great. Thank you for the response. I really like the comment about being a journey and the guidance being practical, you talked a little bit about measurement and evaluation. And I think this next question follow ups really well, why is the continued improvement important for the implementation of the standard.

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Emile Tompa: Maybe I'll start since I talked a little bit about it in the presentation, so I think I emphasize that you can't do it all, particularly if you're starting off right. And the notion that there's always something that can be done is really critical to there's always room for improvement. So wherever you are at in that journey.

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Emile Tompa: you know, if you're going through a cycle of making some improvements, you're biting off a chunk of the things that you think are really priority issues at that juncture, and you're setting some targets to address them.

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Emile Tompa: and you get all the resources in place and the people in place. And you review what? Where? You're currently at, what needs to be modified, what policies, programs, practices, whatever it might be. You set some goals of how the timeline you're going to give yourself to meet your targets, and then you implement that you measure, evaluate along the way. So that's a cycle, right? But there's always things to be done. The best organizations are always looking to do better. Right? So it's not about

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Emile Tompa: we've done it all so where, if we can. Just, you know, put it aside and not think about it anymore. The environment changes. You know, technology changes, the labor market changes. So you're always looking well.

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Emile Tompa: do we have the best approach currently in this space, in this and where there is room for improvement. And even when you're, you know, a role model employer. You're still looking for ways to do better, because there's always room for improvement. And so that's those cycles will have different things being addressed each round. But certainly you're looking to see. Well, where is there still, you know, priority things that we could do to fine tune and do better. So it's a it's a philosophy actually of how to.

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Emile Tompa: you know, be a best in class type organization, where you're always looking to do better. And so that continual improvement process. We've woven into each of our core modules in those modules that I described in the presentation. Each of them have a distinct continual improvement process built into them, so that you're not trying to

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Emile Tompa: bite off and chew and deal with everything at once. It's just not possible you take a component, and you set some goals and and you work in a certain period of time to achieve those goals before you think about what else can we do?

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Emile Tompa: And the periodicity of those cycles will depend, by the organization and its capacity and resources to to revisit these things on a periodic basis.

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Andy: I also think that the continuous improvement in a model that Neil, you know, articulated also, is important. That gives an opportunity and organize for an organization to reflect

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Andy: and have that pros and dialogue internally, but also at points externally, to look at ways that they they can.

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Andy: you know, if they go through a process, you know, having a means to say, you know, what did we do? Well, and what can we do better?

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Andy: And what resources can we tap into in order to be better? So it and it's always an evolving, and, if you like.

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Andy: excuse the expression. But a living process where it's always evolving. And and, as Emil said, you're always looking at ways to improve and evolve both as an organization and and within within your process of of trying to become more inclusive.

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Andy: Some individual, some organizations may feel that there's way. There's that they're they're already

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Andy: meeting some of their targets. But

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Andy: is there a need to move those targets and evolve those targets in any way to grow.

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Emile Tompa: Exactly.

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Andy: Both as an organization regardless of size, because.

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Emile Tompa: Yeah.

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Andy: Growth can mean different things to different people. So, having met measurable reflection of how that's achieved is important as well.

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Emile Tompa: Yeah, yeah, I see it as it kind of akin to like lifelong learning right? There's always more to be done, you know, if you set your mind to to doing better. There's there's always room for improvement.

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Peter: I wanted to pick up on a point that Andy made there, because, Andy, you talked about internal dialogue, and so far we haven't talked about. The fact that that's a really important part of the guidance is is the nothing about us without us principle. So you know right from the very beginning in terms of developing the policies, as

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Peter: Emil said. And then kind of all the way through. And there's obviously different interventions you can make there in terms of consultation, employee resource groups, or simply focus groups with employees. Again, that will that could depend on the size of your organization, but that continual improvement includes that kind of ongoing dialogue and engagement with

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Peter: key stakeholders, which will obviously include employees with disabilities and and many others right. Not to go off on a tangent, Emil, but you know, when you talk, talk about the the question of what we're calling in the standard accessibility supports right? We're moving away from the word accommodation and calling these supports. You know, those kind of workplace supports

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Peter: tend to meet a variety of needs for a variety of stakeholders. So that's where that dialogue would come in.

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Emile Tompa: Yeah. Yeah. Hugely important. What you mentioned there, Peter, particularly the nothing about us. Without us thing in general, this is meant to be each of these cycles and the teams involved. It needs to be a team. It's not a person's job. It needs to be a team with with people within the workplace, who bring different

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Emile Tompa: lived experiences, lends us to the table so that you had the benefit of that collective knowledge, kind of thing and experience. Kind of thing to to make sure it addresses the genuine needs of the workforce and is truly inclusive by design. And it's really absolutely critical that it's person centered. It's meant to make work for for people. Right? It's not like a

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Emile Tompa: administrative thing, right? It is. It's a person centered approach where it's a person approaches requires the people with the experience to be at the table.

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Peter: Yeah. And when I think again picking up on that, when you talk about inclusion, I mean, obviously, the standard is is meant to include one particular group of people. But I think you know that kind of lens of well, you know, how can we ensure our workplace is inclusive?

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Peter: A variety of groups inclusive of everybody. I think that that expands the scope of this a little bit.

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Andy: I also think, Peter, that one key thing is to to recognize that people with disabilities have multiple identities. You know, that intersect.

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Peter: Right? That's a good point.

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Andy: They can be, you know they

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Andy: it may be a simplified example, but somebody would.

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Andy: Disability can can have other identities that intersect.

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Peter: Right.

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Andy: That if that are who they are and

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Andy: their journey, and maybe of how they became an employee, you know, and they bring unique perspectives. That that should be valued. Within the dialogue.

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Peter: Okay.

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Andy: Just not just, not the disability, but also some other identities that may sure

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Andy: lead to to you know a unique contribution to that dialogue.

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Peter: Other identities and other supports. So I could be a person with a disability that requires childcare supports, for example. So I need some supports around that kind of flexibility. So that comes into the identities that you're talking about there, Andy.

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Emile Tompa: Exactly.

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Andy: For sure.

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Peter: Yeah.

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Emile Tompa: Cool.

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Francis: Great. We have quite a number of questions flooding in. So I'm gonna ask a 2 parts questions I think it'll be a good follow up here. So I

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Francis: there's a lot of people involved in the organization, depending on the sizes and and wondering like who should be responsible for the implementation who should be involved. And and also earlier on you mentioned about the system. Thinking, can you elaborate on what this approach is in relation to exclusive employment. I'm sorry, inclusive employment. Because this might be a bit of a new concept to some of the smaller organizations. Perhaps.

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Emile Tompa: Okay, do you want me to start?

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Peter: Go ahead!

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Emile Tompa: Okay? So so I mentioned the systems approach in in our in the the presentation part of it. And and that's really central to to how we're. We're taking this implementation guidance. And it's central, obviously to the standard as well. Because if we really want to create a new normal, that is just the way this organization operates by being inclusive by design, that it, this lenses inclusion, lenses taken to everything.

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Emile Tompa: You have to create a a new culture, of of how you operate, and everybody has to be part of that culture kind of thing. So historically, we would think of some of these things being just somebody's role. Somebody in Hr does accessibility, support, or accommodations.

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Emile Tompa: And then that person leaves right for another job and another agent. And you've lost that capacity because it's not integral to the way the organization operates. Right? It has to be woven into all facets of the organization.

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Emile Tompa: That's what inclusive by design means is is that it's the lens you take at the front end when you're procuring something, when you're hiring people, when you're when you're developing Hr policies. When you're developing operational policies, it's it's absolutely critical.

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Emile Tompa: And another critical thing is just senior management. Buy-in people have to believe and want this to be the way forward for them and give the resources needed to make this happen like the people. Time that need to be there at the table to operationalize the standard to implement it kind of thing. So the systems approach is critical for it to be sustainable. Right? That's what we're trying to think about. How do we create a normal.

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Emile Tompa: a new normal that is sustainable regardless of who comes and goes within the organization. And I think that it is the the essence of how that organization operates.

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Andy: Adding on to Amir's point, so did I cut you off, Peter? I'm sorry.

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Peter: No, go ahead, Nanny, and I'll Andy, I'll jump in after.

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Andy: Just thinking that

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Andy: as an example, it's got to really be interwoven within the tapestry of the organization from the top down. But then you've also got to be able to get buy-in from different departments. And as Peter said nothing about us without us principle, you have to engage people with disabilities with

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Andy: within your organization. To ensure that you know the lived experience concept is interwoven within the systems that you create. But then also you have to ensure that their their viewpoint is valued. And it's and they're integral to those systems. But they're the systems can operate independent of them. But so that they're not seen as

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Andy: as as the they're within the leadership group. But they're not seen as the reason for these systems to be created. It's it's sort of seen as an organizational change

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Andy: with a person centered approach in the systems you create. But the individual

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Andy: individual people aren't integral to the systems working.

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Andy: So the systems are able to be implemented

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Andy: with full buy-in. Throughout the organization.

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Peter: Yeah. So thanks for that, Andy. So just picking up on the 1st part of the question and elaborated on that again, elaborating a little bit more in terms of kind of who should be involved and who's

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Peter: who's responsible? I mean? We're writing the guidance from the point of view that management needs to take that leadership role. So senior management needs to take that leadership role. And and there's certain level of top down on in this in terms of, you know, managers need to kind of do their thing in terms of bringing bringing this to to happen.

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Peter: But but really it's it's buy in from through throughout the organization. So going back to that 1st point that Emil showed in the deck about

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Peter: creating a disability strategy that that's a great way to have buy in right? So

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Peter: engaging people in both the development of that strategy and then making sure that people throughout the organization know. Okay, this is where we're going on these issues. in terms of that strategy. So it, it really, it becomes kind of everybody's business. If you're gonna build a culture right? So that.

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Emile Tompa: I really like that. It's everybody's business. Because I wanted to emphasize the fact that everybody plays a role. There's different roles right? Senior

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Emile Tompa: buy in, and culture comes from top down oftentimes. But everybody plays a role. If you're a people manager, how do you? How do you work with your team in in a way that's inclusive of everybody on your team and their different needs and ability

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Emile Tompa: to really tap into that talent. But it's actually a win-win. You have better levels of engagement when you know how to address the diversity of needs and styles kind of thing. But as a colleague, you know, when you communicate with others. You know you have to play. Be respectful of different ways of communicating and being sure they're included that kind of thing. So we all play a role. And the systems approach really emphasizes that

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Emile Tompa: you can't say, Oh, that's somebody else's job. I'm responsible. No, we all play a role different roles, right? But but and that has to be spelled out. Who's responsible for what and who are the key?

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Emile Tompa: This is different parts, but but it has to be very clear that we all contribute to the process.

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Peter: Yeah, because if you shift it all onto one person, say, or departments such as the Hr department, it's not gonna happen right. They won't have the capacity. They won't have the resources. They won't be able to build that culture. You you can ask them to do certain things you can ask them to, I don't know. Go out and and and recruit, or you can ask them, maybe, to review your policies and practices. But you you may not build a culture that way.

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Emile Tompa: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, no, that. That's sometimes the worst thing I find. At least, if you say, Oh, go to hr, they deal with that. That's a customary thing that we've done in the past. So it's

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Emile Tompa: I'm in operations. You go with. Hr. They'll they'll help, you know. We we all play a role. You can't be dismissive like that. You have to know that if you're a people manager wherever you sit, you know you're you play a key role in making sure people's needs are met.

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Andy: I really like the point Peter made about. You know, strategy, you know. Strategic planning is huge in in small and large organizations, and if, if the continuous improvement and inclusion can be integrated within that strategic plan, it, it really creates a vision and vision for an organization. So and that's how you get long term buy-in.

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Emile Tompa: Yeah, yeah.

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Andy: If it's in interwoven within the strategic planning documents.

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Peter: Yeah.

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Andy: Not necessarily always as a a separate strategy. But if there's if the the continuous improvement movement and

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Andy: the you know, a culture of inclusion is is interwoven within the strategic planning. It really helps.

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Peter: Okay.

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Andy: The buy-in that that the 2 other panelists spoke about

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Andy: in depth, you know, because it creates that vision for the organization long term, whether it's large or small.

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Emile Tompa: Yeah.

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Emile Tompa: definitely. I I it has to be intentional right in that. It's a plan. It's not ad hoc. You know. You don't put out fires you intentionally move forward proactively, and and have a plan.

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Peter: Yeah. And one, maybe one last point on this. And I was kind of thinking about this earlier this morning is that standards are by design, technical. And indeed, there's a technical committee that's been set up for the the standard. But this is as much of an art as it is a science. Right? So when you're trying to build culture.

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Peter: you can't really go about that scientifically, that's the importance of a strategic plan to outline what that vision is because, as much as this is technical, it remains an art about how to build an inclusive culture.

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Emile Tompa: Definitely, yeah.

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Peter: Some of it has to come organically depending on.

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Andy: The purpose of the organization and their goals as well. Like there's there's not a formula of how it's created

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Andy: within every organization, some of it, or will organically develop as a result of of that, that beginning process of starting to develop a system to implement.

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Emile Tompa: Yeah, exactly. I I do think culture can submit. You're getting by the intentionality of looking to make progress in this space. Right? So so it's really critical that that that everybody's working in the same direction and wanting to make change, that makes the workplace more inclusive.

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Francis: Thank you. I like the comment about how everyone can play a role. And and you mentioned about buying. I think we're getting to a bit of a nitty gritty. Now, the questions I have here from the audience is that what if this isn't a case where a senior leader is very resistant on doing this line of work, and and they just want to do the bare minimum and and see. This may be disruptive even to their work like, what would your advice be, and where to start.

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Emile Tompa: Andy, you go ahead.

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Andy: I I just take. I'll take a shot at it. I think I think part of it is through education. I think the only way that we, one of the ways we create changes to education and through knowledge. And I. So I think, even at a senior level, you can always learn to make your organization better. So it's being able to connect with the community.

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Andy: Yeah, interact with people lived experience, see their journey through the employment process through the employment lifecycle find a way that because we can all relate to each other as humans, right? So finding a way that the senior leader can

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Andy: rel relate to team members and and and and see see how they can make their organization better by creating inclusive environments. So if if they're looking at it from an economical

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Andy: viewpoint, how can we create a larger client base by being more inclusive? You know, how can we, you know, finding a way. When I used to do the systemic work with investigations in one of my previous roles, it was finding a way that each person, when coming together for these systemic goals?

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Andy: would. How can you create a situation where they can get a sense of the other person's view and and getting getting sort of the how can you change the lens at the way they're looking at it? And how can you relate to them as, and allow them to grow as an individual, and ultimately their organization, to grow and be a better citizen within the community and create a more inclusive environment for all.

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Andy: so that might be a wishy, washy answer. But I think ultimately it has to be, you know.

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Andy: person, some personal growth, but then some all also organizational growth. And how can the organization

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Andy: be a be a better member within their sector and be a leader rather than a follower?

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Emile Tompa: Yeah. And code that, too. I mean, I I think

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Emile Tompa: everybody maybe comes to the table with with different priors, kind of thing. But for senior leadership. I think the important thing to real for them to realize is,

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Emile Tompa: that it's a win-win right? It's in your organization's interest to go down this journey. It creates higher levels of engagement. It opens up talent pools that you may be struggling to recruit people for. And it's just that, you know you want to be the leader in your class in your sector. If you want to be the best in class.

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Emile Tompa: have a great client base that you know, 27% of persons people in Canada identify as a person with disabilities. So it's not a marginal group. It's quite a large segment of our society. So if we operate in a way that that is inclusive, not just over the workforce, but of our client base kind of thing. It's a huge win-win for organizations, I think, and I think someone who may be apprehensive, maybe if you can

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Emile Tompa: present to them that I guess sometimes they describe as a business case, but that there is a a genuine

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Emile Tompa: financial bottom line or operational performance issues that that are also some of the outcomes of these of these, this process that that might

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Emile Tompa: be a starting point for people to realize. Okay, how can we do better? And how can that actually, then, ultimately give us some of those opportunities to to improve the levels of engagement and improve the diversity of our of our workforce and our client base. I mean, you need to do this. If this is like more than 25% of of our population. If you're, gonna

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Emile Tompa: you know, a leader in your class.

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Andy: I really like how Emil said it was a win win, you know, and for any organization they want to be following best practices and not falling behind their competitors on all, all levels. And, as Emil said, you know the there's an untapped labor pool there that that if if you're not

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Andy: following best practices you miss out on which is not good for the health of your organization and overall

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Andy: for you to implement a a meaningful system for your organization. So really, by not not

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Andy: being in favor of this, you you are.

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Andy: You are falling behind, falling behind honestly. And you know

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Andy: that's not good as a leader either. You want to be at the forefront rather than being reactive.

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Francis: Great.

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Francis: Thank you.

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Francis: Earlier in the presentation, you talk a little bit of the development of the implementation guidance and the diverse team that was involved. Our audience is curious about if there's any specific resources or examples or cases that we use to help inform the development of the guidance, and where they may be able to learn more about those.

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Emile Tompa: Yeah, Andy, do you want to take that? And I'll.

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Andy: Sure. I think we we used.

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Andy: you know, in environmental scan. We used a lot of case studies to inform our knowledge in. In drafting the guide. And I. My understanding is that they're going to be examples for businesses and and case studies and meaningful real life examples that large and small businesses are able to apply within the guide itself. So

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Andy: we've used

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Andy: you know, real life examples, and also our intellectual property of the committee and our lived experience to inform the guide. But, we're not pretending that

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Andy: we are, you know. We know every situation that a business might be in but we're hoping that the examples that are provided within the guide can be relatable to to all on some level, and you know, it can be used as a starting point and allow a business to grow

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Andy: in implementing some of the systems and continual improvement mechanisms that Emil spoke about earlier.

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Emile Tompa: Yeah. And I just wanna add that just a lot of the work that many of us are involved in within idea and beyond we've done. We've been in this space for quite a number of years, and we so we've done a lot of just key informant interviews around you know, promising practices and recruitment, hiring onboarding, mentorship and advancement. You know, studies around you know how to

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Emile Tompa: package job opportunities to make sure it works for the diversity of talent in the labor market we've done work on. We're doing work on procurement best practices within idea as well. So we're drawing on tapping into a rich set of work we've done in the past, within idea and beyond, and many of the people on our team have worked in this space for a number of years, and then, as we mentioned, and I'm not sure if people caught it

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Emile Tompa: once, we have a Beta draft. We also want to get feedback from others. Right? I mean.

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Emile Tompa: we. There's things we might have missed, because obviously everybody brings something new to the table. So we really want to hear from others about areas that could be fine, tuned, improved, you know. Other things they'd like to see. Case examples are are really hugely helpful. Andy touched on those. And that's something we we want to do, too, so that it seems grounded and tangible. When you see

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Emile Tompa: examples of how organizations have done it, you know, in in their context, it it can be inspiring, but also give you some idea. Oh, we can do that, too. Doesn't sound so complicated. That kind of thing. So we'll we'll draw on whatever we can get out there. That's already been done to help support it. And one of the things we're actually doing is is doing quite an extensive review of tools and resources already out there that that will help support the process, and we'll point to them in our in our annexes.

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Andy: And the one other point that Emil brought up is, you know, the standard we went through quite a consultation with with public, and, as Emil mentioned, where we want to do, consult

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Andy: some consultation in relation to the guide, and hear from you as to as to what we're doing, and if we're if there's gaps within within the research. But, as Emil said, we, we there is an esteemed group of individuals that I'm honored to work with, that are working on the the guide. So we're hoping that we can hit all the major points, and with the consultation that any nuances that we might have missed can be included as a result of the beta that that we're gonna hope

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Andy: will be made available.

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Francis: I see.

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Francis: So the implementation guidance related to the the employment standards, and our audience is wondering if the guidance will also have some specific details related to, you know, certain scenarios that happens to the workplaces. So an example is given here is that it's in relation to accessibility, supports or accommodation. So

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Francis: you know, when they're hybrid workers and employers may only kind of provide the accessibility supports to when they're at the office or at home, only depending on which place that they work. Perhaps the majority of their time, so will the guidance have any specific details regarding those kind of requirements, and and how to go about doing that.

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Emile Tompa: Good. That's very good question. The way we're approaching it, and and I'll touch on on that and others. Andy and Peter may want to elaborate is we're we're giving some pointers of things to look for, you know, flexible work arrangements, you know. Time, flexibility. Should you know where you

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Emile Tompa: where you where you work at home, you know, in the workplace whatever. So there's some some obvious pointers that we can give people as things to look for as you're going through a cycle right? Ultimately the choices will be made by the team within the organization that that's tasked with with doing a particular cycle. But certainly we want to give them a starting point. The standard itself

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Emile Tompa: gives a lot of indications of the kinds of things you need to think about right technologies, communications, you know, flexibility. You know, there's a lot of, you know, obvious areas that need to be for a starting point. And we'll give as many of those kinds of pointers as possible, and and hopefully, maybe some of the annexes can can elaborate on some of those details that we think are particularly critical.

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Peter: Yeah, so I can jump in there. So it's it's hard to get down to the the nitty gritty of everything. So obviously we can't cover every single workplace scenario. But we may give some scenarios, for example, some some sort of case studies. As Emil said, we'll point to other resources as well. So maybe particular organizations or resources regard regarding accessibility supports.

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Peter: One of the things that we haven't really touched on so far is the idea of compliance. So, although it's a volunt voluntary standard, we're writing it from the point of view of

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Peter: of, here's how to be compliant with the standard, and we we recognize that some employers may be operating in a jurisdiction in which they need to be compliant with other pieces of legislation, such as the aota in Ontario, and the other provincial acts, such as BC. And other places. So there is a there's a tie into compliance. And

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Peter: this kind of relates both to this question and the question of of see lack of senior management buy in so

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Peter: we're we're not. How do I put this? We're not writing the standard or or sorry this guidance, from the point of view of a large stick to wield for people to follow. We're probably giving more carrots than sticks. But compliance will come into it, depending on the jurisdiction that some organizations find themselves in.

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Emile Tompa: Yeah, yeah, definitely, we need to be sympathetic towards

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Emile Tompa: requirements in different jurisdiction. And I think the standard itself has been written with with an eye to that.

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Emile Tompa: So so we I mentioned, I think, reporting being an important part of what we're recommending, and that could be voluntary, or maybe in some cases a requirement. But certainly we really believe it's important to report internally, but also externally, a lot of organizations will be very proud of what they're doing. While even on their website, I think the accessible Canada Act

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Emile Tompa: requires you to do that with your accessibility, planning and reporting as well to make it a public document. So there are various layers of things we need to take into consideration, as we recommend how

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Emile Tompa: best to to weave this into the way you're operating and building in those continue improvement process. How do you get

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Emile Tompa: voluntarily compliant with the standard? Then keep in mind also these these other things that that you you're required to do within your jurisdiction.

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Francis: Great.

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Francis: We're almost at the end of our time now, and I want to just point out that I've noticed that Rebecca on the team has been helping to answer a couple of the questions that are in the Q. And a. So thank you very much, and I encourage folks to check that out. And maybe we can take one real, very quick last question. So talk a little bit about resources and journey, and where organizations.

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Francis: maybe at different stages. So in terms of next step, would the guidance also contain? You know, tools that would help organization to actually scan their own environment and and and find out where they are. So that they can kind of plan their their next step in in the process.

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Andy: All right.

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Emile Tompa: I'll start.

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Andy: Oh, I I was just gonna say that I it is our intention to include audit tools and allow organizations to to sort of choose in a way, choose your own adventure. You know. Where? Where do you want to start? And where do you want to get to? And how do you want to achieve it. And what are you doing at this point? But I'll but I'll I'll hand them Mike over to Emil.

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Emile Tompa: You said exactly what I was going to say. Like audit tools are a very common thing for for implementing standards, and sometimes they check off lists. But there are means to. And there's different ways. You can collect the data, the knowledge in your scan of the environment within your workplace. Conversations with people really help talk to the people. What.

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Emile Tompa: what, what are there? The challenges that they have? You know. What are the things that they see need to be addressed, you know. Ask them what they think is most urgently. They needed that kind of thing. So that's that's an audit of a different sort. But you some organizations. It would maybe more formal, and have questionnaires, anonymous ones that get sent out. You know.

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Emile Tompa: health and safety questionnaire and inclusive employment questionnaire like we get some feedback from people and get a sense of what the consensus is of the key gaps that need to need to be addressed. But but audit shows of some sort.

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Emile Tompa: We'll, we'll be critical for helping you collect the relevant knowledge intelligence about what's the lay of the land currently in your organization, so we'll be providing some of those with the Annexes.

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Peter: Yeah, that's a great question in terms of scanning tools. I mean, we've obviously started to point to different data sets. For example, like statistics, Canada, and so on in terms of data that you you might wanna use to to do your scan. But

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Peter: you you mentioned surveys. Emil. That's a really great way of scanning your organization to see where you're at. But you know, I think I think we could put some more thought into that front end in terms of here's how to scan your organization and and where you want to go to get those tools. It's a it's a great question.

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Andy: It'll it also allows you to. Sorry, Emil, did I cut you off again?

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Emile Tompa: No, go! Go for it.

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Andy: Just

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Andy: also allowing the organization to develop their own thought map of how they're gonna get there. You know.

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Andy: And individualize it a little bit, depending on their sector and their needs.

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Andy: This is an organization

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Andy: not just size, you know, we we talk about large and small, but also what sector are they in? What are their goals of their organization? And what thought map? Do they want to create.

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Emile Tompa: Yeah, yeah.

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Andy: Part of their strategic plan.

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Emile Tompa: Yeah, yeah.

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Andy: Being able to individualize. You know the journey to get there.

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Emile Tompa: Yeah, the the other thing I wanted to add it just touched. From what Peter said in my mind about we haven't talked a whole lot about benchmarking. And how well are we doing relative and a lot of organizations for some reason, need that the comparison thing to give them a sense of? Are we? Are we in the right place? Or, you know, relative to our peers? And are we? Are we? Are we making progress kind of thing, not just within organization measurement, evaluation. But you know, in benchmarking with others. So so we'll need to think about how going forward. Some of that

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Emile Tompa: kind of intelligence can be gathered, whether it's statistics, Canada data to tell you. Well, in in our labor market this is the lay of the land in terms of persons with lived experience, kind of thing? Or does our organization represent that that labor market or not that kind of thing. So there's various ways to think about benchmarking.

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Peter: And when you do your strategic plan normally, you're gonna be doing some kind of environmental scan as well. So it's once we get to that portion. I think you know, talking about a little bit more about environmental scans, and how you do that could.

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Emile Tompa: Shit.

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Peter: Very well. There.

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Emile Tompa: Yeah, one of the things I want to mention about the Q&A stuff. Just we, we are going to make that available to folks. There was some from our the last session we had to that we'll be responding to and making that available through our idea website.

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Francis: Great. Well, thank you, Emil, Peter and Andy, for the very informative session. I'm personally looking forward to the Beta version coming up.

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Francis: So a reminder to our audience that the recording and the transcriptions of today's session will be made available on our website, and we'll be taking a short break for the Webinar Speaker Series during the summer months as well. So we'll resume in September. So stay tuned

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Francis: and at the meantime, you know, reach out to us. You can email email us at info at vraie dash idea.ca, and if you have any questions or suggestions about webinars. Topics. You know, definitely. Let us know and also follow us on various social media. Accounts as well. So I hope everyone has a pleasant rest of the day and the summer, and we'll see you in a few months.

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Emile Tompa: Thanks. Everyone.

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Peter: Thanks. Everyone.

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Andy: Thank you.

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Francis: I know.

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Peter: Andy! Emil, are you still here.

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Emile Tompa: Yep.

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Andy: Yes.

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Emile Tompa: We're just waiting for everybody to leave.

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Peter: Yeah.

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Emile Tompa: Yeah, I've removed everybody, the ones that were lingering

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Emile Tompa: anyways. You guys are great, amazing.

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Peter: That that went really? Well, I'm sorry I lost you guys for about 5 min. My, I didn't realize when I moved my computer this morning that it it, the power cable, came on, plugged, and all of a sudden I had no power. So so I was. I was absent for about 5 min. But yeah, I thought it turned out really well.

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Rebecca: We noticed we noticed answers me to go comment. So you were missed.

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Emile Tompa: Where did you go like? It wasn't a question too tough, and you left it for us to deal with.

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Peter: Now it's not ready to answer that. So yeah.

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Andy: About the buy in from senior leadership.

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Emile Tompa: Yeah. Well, that's why it's true that the really tough questions.

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Peter: That's why I threw in that compliance one to talk about senior management. When I finally came back.

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Emile Tompa: Yeah, no, it was a great conversation is for your really great.

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Francis: Blending.

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Emile Tompa: Our questions with the ones from the audience. It was really smooth.

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Francis: Yeah, I think.

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Emile Tompa: That was good. That was really.

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Peter: Yeah, that one.

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Francis: Yeah.

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Andy: I thought it went. I thought it went really well, and we we complimented. Sorry I cut you off there a couple of times a meal.

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Emile Tompa: No, no, no, me, it's me.

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Emile Tompa: Yeah, just always, you know, jumping in there right away too quickly, like a jackrabbit. No sorry about that.

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Andy: That's all good. I just you know, I but I thought I thought that it went really well, and I thought the questions

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Andy: we're really good. So.

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Emile Tompa: It was a it was a good mix. I thought the balance, you know, of of everybody's getting chance to speak, and.

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Peter: Sure.

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Emile Tompa: Their expertise and stuff like that. I think that shows

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Emile Tompa: for the audience to realize the the knowledge base that we have here working on the team.

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Rebecca: Some good ideas, I think, from the from the from the delegate, from the people attending but I think we should keep in mind as we go forward like, I think this the case scenarios and the tools. Well, our work will never be done, of course, that we can maybe continue to add some of those practical tools and guidelines.

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Peter: Really good ideas. There.

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Emile Tompa: Yeah, that was really great. And I kept thinking, Okay, well, well, we'll keep adding things over time. It's not going to ever.

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Peter: Again.

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Emile Tompa: But I didn't want to mention that, because we already have a lot of work to do that I want to give ourselves more.

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Andy: Yeah, I thought it was interesting that there seem to be a a real desire for like tools and things. So maybe we have.

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Andy: Examples and things.

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Emile Tompa: And I mentioned about something that we're doing, and Francis is very active in in sort of actually spearheading it. Is is a scan of tools and resources that we're we're contextualizing and putting up on our website stuff from other people, and that we want to profile because it fits in with this space?

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Emile Tompa: Yeah?

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Emile Tompa: And just so that it's in one place rather than you have to find it yourself and spend hours on the Internet trying.

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Emile Tompa: Where we're helping kind of build up that that compendium of of knowledge in 1 1 place to help with navigation.

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Peter: Yeah. So 2 of the questions were around resisting change. And that's something that we haven't talked about so far in our meetings is is, how do you deal with in this case? It was a senior manager and another case. It was a manager. Right? You didn't wanna do is resisting work workplace.

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Emile Tompa: And that's a really important thing. We have to think all the time, and then not everybody's gonna be, you know, buying in 100%.

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Emile Tompa: Yeah, with exactly

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Emile Tompa: change. Right? Change is scary for lots of people. And and rethinking how you work is is scary. Right? So.

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Rebecca: And the resistance might come from the bot like it might come from other coworkers and stuff.

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Emile Tompa: Yeah.

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Rebecca: Resistance is an issue, right?

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Emile Tompa: Yeah, yeah.

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Emile Tompa: yeah. And and so that, yeah, I'm not sure I have a solution for that may. Maybe you folks do. But maybe some of the culture stuff will have things that you know, training and stuff like that that might help.

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Peter: Yeah, well, I think.

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Emile Tompa: On board.

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Peter: Yeah, I mean, we we need to include something in there about change management, you know, basically change.

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Emile Tompa: Yeah, that's true. Yeah. Good point.

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Rebecca: Yeah.

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Rebecca: I'm gonna have to go. But I think you guys did a fantastic job. I hope I answered the question. I really tried to be as accurate as I could.

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Rebecca: there were a few I was a little uncertain about. But I think I did. Okay. And I think we have some people who are clearly watching and waiting, and that's really great. I think we'll get good feedback when we release the draft. But I wonder, I wonder about the idea of having, like a phase one which is the guidance that we're working on, but a phase 2 which might be which might require more work, maybe more funding and focus on practical guidelines.

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Emile Tompa: Yeah, okay.

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Peter: Yeah.

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Emile Tompa: Yeah, I agree. Okay, I have to get going to. I didn't have another meeting lined up right back to back to this thing. Okay, thanks. Everybody have a great one.

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Peter: Everyone, you too.

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Rebecca: Bye, everyone.

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Peter: Thank God!

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Therese Salenieks: Everyone that's really great.

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Francis: Yep.