Mandy PennyÕs Journey Andrew Hello. My name is Andrew Dixon, and I work as a research associate with the Inclusive Design for Employment Access or IDEA Social Innovation Lab. Today, I have the pleasure of talking to Mandy Penny about her experiences in higher education and employment. This project is called Journeys to Inclusion, stories of lived experience in the world of work. IDEA is collecting the stories of persons with disabilities who have found and thrived in fulfilling work, and of the workplace leaders with the confidence, capacity and know-how to employ and mentor them. These stories are powerful tools for creating inclusive workplaces. As I mentioned, we have Mandy Penny from St. John's Newfoundland. So I'm just going to go quickly Mandy through your bio. Mandy is a passionate advocate for accessibility and inclusion with a strong background in social enterprise and disability advocacies. She holds an MBA in social Enterprise and Entrepreneurship for Memorial University of Newfoundland and brings her expertise as an employment equity officer at Memorial University. Mandy has extensive experience in training, development, facilitation and accessible design, helping businesses and organizations improve their disability confidence and inclusive practices. As an active community member, she also serves on the board of the Disabled Women's Network of Canada, DAWN, and has led initiatives supporting employment and entrepreneurship for people with disabilities. Mandy's work is driven by her commitment to creating equitable workplaces and fostering inclusive communities. So, Mandy from your bio, we can tell that you have and extensive education and employment background, but bios don't always tell the full story. Can you tell us how you got to where you are today? Mandy So, I guess I got to where I'm too by, when I was graduating high school. I didn't think I could find employment because of my disability. So I just continued with my education especially because I did well academically in the public school system. I decided to do psychology because I had a professor come and speak at my class in high school. I really liked what he had to say. I just thought psychology would be a good field. So, I'm with a physical disability because I was told like some careers I couldn't do because they be laborious and I always liked psychology, and mental health, and that. So then I did that degree. And then I realized through my lived experience on the courses I did in sociology that I didn't want to do psychology, like, continue on. I didn't want a job where I worked one-on-one by myself. I was very social. I was interested in social issues, especially coming from a family of low income. I saw a lot of problems were more society related versus individual, so I didn't think like counseling, you couldn't counsel people out of poverty or other social issues. So I leaned more towards social work, and I did the social work degree at Memorial University, once I finished my psychology honor's degree. Then when I finish that degree, I realized how difficult it would be to get a job in social work, given my physical disability, because you have to travel all around town or out of town and visit people's houses that are often not accessible, and you had to have a driver's license, which I didn't have. So, then, I went to work at a non-profit that helped people with disabilities, as funds developer. So I help funding applications because I found the resource center very helpful to me and I wanted to help them so they could help other people. So I was doing that for a few months and then I met my supervisor Kathy Hawkins, and she offered me an opportunity to volunteer with her at Empower/InclusionNL, that helps businesses and employers become more accessible to people with disabilities. So I helped with a festival and that turned into employment, and once I became employed with InclusionNL I was working with employers who were very keen on making their businesses more inclusive and accessible, but I thought another good way to make an accessible business would be to have entrepreneurs with disability start businesses because they already have the passion to make it accessible, give them their needs. And entrepreneurship can be a great employment method to people with disabilities who often have trouble attaching themselves to the workforce. Because entrepreneurship allows you to set your own accommodations, such as a flexible schedule and things like that. So then, as I was working with InclusionNL, I did initiatives for youth with disabilities who wanted to start businesses. And then the opportunity came available to do my MBA in social enterprise and entrepreneurship, which I was very keen on, because InclusionNL was a social enterprise that allowed me to expand my knowledge of social enterprise and entrepreneurship for people with disabilities. Andrew Wow. I mean that's quite the collection of experience and degrees and work that you've been involved in now for, how many years is that now, so thatÕs seven? Mandy Yeah, to study university in 2010, and then finish social work in 2017 and started working, say in 2018, at Empower. Andrew Okay. So, since you know, moved on from Empower, you've started work as an employment equity officer at Memorial University. So, tell me about that experience, the successes, the challenges that you encountered. Mandy So I should say how I got there. So I did my MBA with my classmates who are all over the world. I guess because covid happened. So they couldn't travel. I was watching them when they came here. Many of them were international students. So watching them try to gain employment, and given their international student status, and being newcomers, they were having barriers to employment that were very similar to people with disabilities. So then, even though we had different experiences, our barriers to a point were very similar. So I could relate to that, and I tried to help them. So, when the opportunity came up to return to my university, where I had done three degrees, I brought in my scope beyond employment equity for people with disabilities, and looked at employment equity for all employment equity groupsÑwomen, LGBTQ+, indigenous people, racialized, black employees, and people with disabilities. I was excited for that opportunity. Andrew Oh, okay. So at the university, what sorts of things have come up, where, you know, you're happy with how things turned out. Mandy Well, my work moto is Òalways working together with people.Ó So, I really like the collaboration around employment equity in HR. At the EDIAR (equity, diversity, inclusion and anti-racism) office at Memorial we do a lot of partnerships around employment equity. It's nice to see so many people passionate about employment equity. ThereÕre people who contact me daily looking for advice on doing searches in the good old manner. Can I do training for them, help them with their job ads and their hiring processes? Whenever we start a new committee around employment equity, there's always people who want to join. We have a committee around womenÕs equity for faculty positions, as well as one for academic leadership roles such as the deanÕs and the like. So seeing that grow, because the one for faculty position is fairly old. Whereas this one's new. It is very interesting to see how equity can be improved. Andrew It's that sounds like there's a lot of good work happening there. But I want to rewind to your work at InclusionNL for a second, as the coordinator of business partnerships, and tell me about the successes that you encountered there. Mandy Well, when I left university during my social work degree and couldn't find work as a person with disability, I was a bit disenchanted. I think working at InclusionNL, that restored my faith in that people wanted to be inclusive and accessible to people with disabilities, they just didn't know how to be. They were a bit nervous, so rather than trying and failing, making a big mistake, they didn't, they'd rather not try. So, when I was working with InclusionNL, it was nice to see that people reached out to try to learn how to be more inclusive and they were willing to try. We had a lot of businesses for whom it was their first time looking at accessibility and inclusion of people with disabilities. So there was a lot of work to be done, but in the years we worked with them, every year they became more, I'd say accessible and accessibility confident. So for example the Regatta, remember when we first started with them to when I left, they were very accessible with their services, such as a golf carts where they provide rides to people who can't walk to the lake and back, they have large print schedules, ear plugs and volunteers on site. So it's nice to see that people, because when I left the University, I guess I felt like people didn't want to be inclusive and accessible to people with disabilities. But then I realized they did. They just didn't know how. They just needed the help. Andrew Okay, that makes sense. You know, so working with all these organizations, I think it's taught you a great deal about accessibility and inclusion. But you have other experience, like in direct disability advocacy. I was just going to ask you a quick question about advocacy and accessibility with DAWN Canada and anything else from Empower. Can you tell me about some of the projects or initiatives that you're most proud of? Mandy So right now IÕm on the executive of Dawn Canada, I'm the secretary, and I really enjoy that work because it looks at accessibility from an intersectional lens, so women and girls with disabilities, or gender diverse people with disabilities, and it includes racialization, indigenous and black women and girls with disabilities. Because often, we see those social identities as separateÑaccessibility, disability, then race and gender--but it's nice to see them all come together, because we know the more social identities you have the more different your experiences are. So as a white woman with a disability, my experience is different than a racialized woman with a disability. So we've done a lot of work around gender-based violence of women and girls with disabilities, such as ÒDo the RightsÓ campaign, where we're working on a toolkit now to teach women and girls how to know their rights around gender-based violence. So that's been great and, in terms of Empower, I have a social work background by trade and I'm a registered social worker. So I always like advocacy. I was on the Paratransit working group as a user helping Metrobus, our city bus system, look at accessibility in terms of the public transportation. So I really enjoyed that as well. I hosted a two-day conference for youth with disabilities, aged 15 to 35 who were interested in starting a business. I specifically increased the age to 35 even though the program was for youth, because I realized that often look at youth as being 15 to 30, but many people with disabilities are delayed in their careers, due to their disability. So, I wanted to extend what we consider youth, so that more people could gain that experience. Andrew Wow, I mean conferences, projects, transit. I mean, you've kind of seen the full gambit, at least in our little corner of the world. So thinking back on your experience, through all these projects, through all the work, have you seen attitudes towards disability inclusion change over the course of your career? Mandy Yes, I think so. It's interesting that people are more engaged around inclusion and accessibility. So often within, and in different aspects of accessibility inclusion. So InclusionNL is more popular than ever. We have accessible legislation, federally and provincially, so people are more interested in creating accessible practices and policies and services including their accessibility plans. But itÕs not even if they have to, they want to. So you'll go to an event, and they'll have some service friendly areas. They'll have accessibility information on the web page, or different supports that you wouldn't see normally, I think thanks to the different legislations and people talking about their experiences with disability, especially after COVID 19. People are more engaged around that topic, which is nice to see. Andrew Wow, I mean it's good that people are talking about it. We've got the legislation, the work that's being done. So it looks like, you know, things are doing better than from when you first enrolled in university back in 2010. So the next thing I want to talk about is what this project is about. It's this journeys to inclusion. This aims to share stories of individuals with disabilities thriving in the workplace. From your experience, what do you think are the key elements to creating inclusive workplaces? Mandy I'd say number one, you need to have an infrastructure commitment in being accessible. I mean, you don't need to know how to make that accessible, but your first step is to realize that you can always improve accessibility. So you need to have an interest in doing that. And your second step would be, look at what you already have. So for example, you already have people with disabilities, even if you don't know it. You might have invisible disabilities, or they might not have disclosed they have a disability. Think federally, 27% of people in Canada aged 15 to 64 identifies as having a disability. So, even if you don't think you have people with disabilities in your organization, you do have them. So always go back to your team and ask about their experiences. And then, I'd say finally would be, there's lots of resources out there around gaining more confidence in accessibility. You just have to look for it. So, reach out to InclusionNL, the Autism Society, the Learning Disabilities Association, places like that, because they have a wealth of knowledge and they're willing to help you. Andrew Okay, so next I was looking for something about mentorship. So what are your thoughts on mentorship and community support and how they relate to building inclusive work environments? Mandy Mentorship got me to where I am today. So I was lucky to have a supervisor who basically didn't know what my skills were. I think she just heard me talking at the lunch table at Empower trying to help people with my knowledge of social work and the system over the many years of being in it. And she offered me a chance to volunteer that turned into a job. Because if you asked me when I started, that I'd be talking with people in a room of 300 people about accessibility and inclusion, I would have told you, you have no idea about reality, because I didn't like public speaking and I didn't know anything about accessibility or business. But now, I realize I do have a great mentor. You can learn a lot [from a mentor], and even if it's not a formal mentorship, I have lots of friends with disabilities who've been a great resource to me over the years, helped me through some tough times, professionally and personally. And even when I'm experiencing a barrier, I always lean on one of them because, they might not have the same exact experience, but I'm sure they can relate and they have some sort of experience related to having a disability. Andrew As someone with a disability whose work extensively on both policy and grassroots advocacy, what advice would you give to an organization aiming to improve accessibility and inclusion in the workplace? Mandy I would say have an open mind and be willing to not do everything perfectly at the first go. Because a lot of people, they want, they're too afraid that, because they're like, oh my business is inaccessible, so I can't participate in this program through InclusionNL. But for example, we had I think the first business at InclusionNL, I wasn't there but I heard it, they didn't want to participate with InclusionNL because they thought their business couldn't be accessible because the bathroom was on the second floor. So, with some problem solving, InclusionNL helped them figure out a way to manage that. So, they made a map of all the accessible washrooms in downtown St. John's, and gave it to the staff and said, if anybody with a disability comes looking for an accessible washroom, hereÕs the closest washroom. Because many people, this business was a coffee shop, and many people don't need a washroom if they're going to a coffee shop. So it wasn't that big of an issue, and they found a good way to handle it. I just think people are afraid to get started because they want to do everything perfectly. But EDI especially is always growing. So you're never going to do everything perfectly. And when you get it done, something else will happen, and you'll have to change it again. Andrew Well, it sounds like businesses and organizations that get involved with InclusionNL, they're working hard and they're trying. But from what you say, it just it takes time. And sometimes, it takes trying again if it doesn't work the first time. So I'm, glad to hear that some organizations are putting in that effort. So, let's talk about you again for a second, not organizations. What personal experiences have shaped your approach to accessibility and inclusion. Mandy Good question. I guess mine would be, learning from everybody. So when I started, my experience was veryÉa person with a disability. Well, luckily the organization I work for is cross disability. So I learned a lot around removing barriers for all disabilities and everybody, which I wouldn't have thought of before without having that experience. So, I know a lot of the times people always focus on the built environment, but accessibility is everything, it's in communication, and in documentation. It's in procurement and everything. So looking at it from the whole lens, and that involves bringing in a lot of people who have that experience. So, I used to sit on a lot of committees around accessibility and being the only person with a disability I was used to saying, I only have a physical disability, and I can't be the person who speaks for people with partial sight. I mean in business, when working with a business I would, because I had that knowledge from the organization. But personally if I was on a committee, I'd always try to bring in many different people who had a vast experience of disability. Andrew Okay. That makes sense. I mean, having the right people at the table is always a sort of an important factor for figuring out, you know, authentic ways to address issues in inclusion and accessibility. So, I mean, you know when I think about that, you know, through what your experience has been up to this point and you know, through all of your education and all of your work. Well now we're going to look forward, look ahead. And looking forward, what do you see as the next big challenge or opportunity in the field of disability inclusion and employment? Mandy I suppose there's two things that are, I guess, opportunities for innovation. Number one would be post impact of COVID or the pandemic. Because COVID was bad for many reasons, but it was good for some things in terms of helping more people with disabilities get into the workforce. So we now have the ability to work from home, set our own schedules. There was more focus around accommodations, checking in on each other, checking out our mental health, and allowing for people to bring in their personal experiences into the workplace. Like for example, I'm not feeling good today. Can I take a few hours off and work late in the evening? Some of that. And then another challenge related to COVID was the moving everything to digital. So I think there's more of a push to make everything accessible now, because many people, when they had to move digitally, they didn't know what was involved to become accessible. But now they know, if they're going to offer an event, it has to be hybrid and it has to be accessible. I think we've seen great strides in that, which is great. We're having many people who were being normally excluded from events, now being able to participate, like this project for example, there's people all over Canada who normally wouldn't get to participate in this program. And then another challenge would be AI. So AI is becoming very popular, and AI can be very helpful for quickening things up and helping people who might experience a barrier. Like, for example, if you're writing a resume or cover letter and you're having trouble with grammar or spelling, that can help you and then you just fixed it up. But AI can be dangerous, it would exclude people who are equity deserving, but based on certain criteria. So some recruitment places might use AI to screen out applicants and that might unknowingly screen out equity deserving candidates. Andrew Well, I mean there's a lot going on in the world. You know the post-COVID life has definitely introduced some positive change and some challenges. But, you know, I think you've done a really good job at outlining some of those sorts of opportunities and risks that are out there for persons with disabilities. And I want to thank you for that. That pretty much wraps up what we had planned for today. So, is there anything else that I didn't cover, or any last things that you'd like to add before we wrap it up? Mandy No, I think that's, just that equity is always growing and EDIAR is always growing, so it will be interesting to see what happens in the future. Andrew That's great. Well, thank you so much. And I look forward to chatting in the future. Thank you.