Journeys to Inclusion: 
Jacquie's Story - 
[00:00:00] Welcome to Journeys to Inclusion. These are the stories of persons with disabilities who have found and thrived in fulfilling work and of the workplace leaders with the confidence, capacity, and know how to employ and mentor them. These stories are powerful tools for creating inclusive workplaces.
Journeys to Inclusion, or Journeys, provide real world examples of how evidence based solutions can be put into practice in different contexts. Journeys put a human face to the challenges and rewards of building inclusive workplaces. They build communities and encourage dialogue around workplace accessibility and inclusion.
Perhaps most importantly, they inspire other employers, community organizations, and persons with disabilities to embark on and persist in their own journeys. Joining us today is Jackie. Welcome, Jackie. To start, would you mind telling me a little bit about yourself? Your education and employment background.
Yeah, for [00:01:00] sure. Um, so, um, my name is Jackie Pugh. Um, I have a, um, a couple of degrees. Um, my first was in a bachelor's of music, which was an honors bachelor's. And the second one, I guess I have a minor in women and gender studies as well from that. And the second one was a master's of social justice and community engagement.
Um. I have had a wide range of jobs, uh, starting with, um, you know, customer service, um, and, you know, food service industry, um, positions to, um, research positions and, um, Uh, you know, administration, um, over the years, it's varied and, um, I have a, yeah, wide, a wide array of, of experience, uh, in a lot of different areas for work.
It sounds like you have a lot of experiences to draw from in describing your journey. Can you tell me about [00:02:00] a positive experience at work where you felt included and fully able to participate? Yeah, absolutely. Um, I've had a couple of, um, or I've held a couple of, uh, like, university based, um, Uh, job positions in my time, um, both in school and out of school.
Um, uh, when I was in school, there was a job that I had that, um, pertained to working in, um, kind of like an equity office, um, and. I was constantly kind of really pleasantly surprised at how accommodating, um, my boss was and how accommodating my coworkers were. Um, a lot of them didn't really focus on accessibility as something that needs to be solved or addressed in the major way.
Um, they [00:03:00] kind of were able to mix it into, uh, getting to know me as a person instead of having this huge conversation about, um, you know, accommodations or like we want to get to know you as a person and what you need. As a worker, and part of that was just, uh, you know, that I needed accommodations for, um, for working there, um, and, you know, every time that I would go in, uh, or join on calls, there would be, like, check ins at the beginning to say, like, you know, how are you doing, are we, um, is this a good time to meet, if not, we can reschedule, like, we're, they were very flexible, um, and very understanding, um, I think it's pretty easy for a lot of employers to get frustrated with, um, Uh, you know, disabled, uh, people's, uh, need for, uh, rescheduling or, um, uh, you know, [00:04:00] cancelling meetings for, uh, health reasons or because of, uh, appointments.
Um, and they were constantly just reassuring and said like, you know, It's okay if we need to put this on the back burner so that you can get something fixed or to, to get to this appointment because like it's more important that you are, you know, taking care of yourself and we can we can deal with the rest later.
So there's just, there's a lot of really positive things that came out of those jobs. A lot of which have carried with me to other workplaces in terms of like the expectations of how to be treated as a worker. Um, so they, one of the things I think that was most positive was that they again saw me as. a whole person and not a problem to be fixed, or something that might [00:05:00] be difficult to address, and they saw my expertise and my, uh, kind of, uh, my lived experience as a, Um, a really positive aspect of my employment, um, and that's what carried through and our kind of work relationship wasn't that like they were giving me accommodations, but instead they were allowing me to make decisions and have autonomy over my workplace.
Um, and how I was going to be, uh, received and treated, um, in that way. So, um, yeah, lots of really positive experiences in those jobs that I had. Thanks for sharing that. It sounds like there were some processes in place that made your everyday communications and working relationships run really smoothly.
Who was involved in those [00:06:00] processes? Was it management, the whole team? How did that play out? Yeah. Um, this was, um, During, um, kind of the tail end of the first bit of the COVID pandemic, um, and so a lot of our, um, work was done online. So I had a limited number of co workers at my disposal. I had, um, one, kind of, Touchstone person that I went to, she didn't like to call herself my boss, but she for all intents and purposes was, or at least was a supervisor for me, and ran the office that I was a part of.
And, uh, she essentially was the person that connected me to different areas of the university and, and those people I considered to be coworkers because we were working towards a similar goal, even though we weren't under the same office. It was a bit of a strange [00:07:00] thing, but it was COVID and we, we didn't have a, a lot of, uh, um, like a solidified understanding of who we were to each other.
We just kind of saw that we needed to. To work on a goal and and joined together to do that. Um, so it came from, like, mostly, mostly that main kind of hiring figure. And, uh, then there were offshoots of other people as well, but, um, yeah, mainly that, that person. And so what was your role then in making this work well?
Um, I think I was honest, um, which is difficult, I think, for, um, uh, for me in particular and my kind of experiences with, interviewing with getting hired, um, you know, I've been, uh, I started working as a disabled person when I was, you know, 15, [00:08:00] 16 years old. So I've always been disabled in every field that I've worked in.
Um, and a lot of those fields have required me to be, you know, very careful about who I tell about my disability and what I disclose and when I do so because the then jobs won't call you back or there'll be a a very distinct like oh well you can't do this this interview is pretty much over because we can't you know um we can't kind of fit that um fit you into our workplaces um And I think that with this, the reason why it worked on my end was that I saw an opening for being vulnerable and open and honest with a hiring manager and trusted that she would receive what I said.
Um, positively [00:09:00] and, and would take it and actually do something with it. Um, I've had a lot of experiences where that isn't the case and it's kind of. Stung me, uh, in a way. And so I, I really, I think that me being honest about what I need for accommodations, how much time I need for projects, if I need an extension on timelines, if I feel like I'm not, you know, um, something isn't mixing or melding well, um, Or even just if, you know, I'm not, um, kind of understanding something, but all of it really depended on me, like, communicating that to my, to my, uh, hiring manager, and then also having open and honest communication and, you know, Um, conversations with her about, um, you know, this week is bad for chronic pain.
This week is a bit difficult because I have three appointments in a row that I've been waiting for, for [00:10:00] two years. Like there's a lot of things that I think, um, if they hadn't been said would have been passed off as not caring or not being invested in the work that I'm doing. And so me being open and transparent with her.
was part of how I made that work. Um, and also just understanding my rights as a disabled worker and understanding how, um, AODA works and how the, um, different programming can help me, um, if, if there needs to be some kind of push in a direction, which thankfully there wasn't, but, um, yeah, just having, having tools in my back pocket to pull out if I need them.
And so one thing you said there struck me, it was that there was, you saw an opening, to be honest, about your need. What was it that, that hiring [00:11:00] manager did that, that made you feel like you could be honest, that, that you presented this opening? Um, it's, it's interesting because I've, I've thought about this a lot, um, just over the years and, you know, Looking at different managers and different jobs that I'd had, um, and how this was so different and refreshing.
And I genuinely think that the one thing that this person did was, like I said, just kind of see me as a whole person instead of seeing me as a problem or something, an issue to be solved or a, um, a complication in her day. Um, there was never. a look of, uh, or, or an acknowledgment of, oh, this might be difficult for me to figure out.
It was always a positive, okay, this is challenging because of the system that we work in, but not [00:12:00] because of you or your situation. This is a broader system problem. And she was very committed to, um, you know, in, in a system that's rigidly, um, ableist, like academia, she was willing to push back against that to a point where she advocated for me, uh, with, you know, the Dean of Students, she, um, pushed back against, um, some people that thought that my position in her office wasn't necessary, um, and advocated for the inclusion of disability justice in an equity program, um, And so I think that there's a very human aspect to her way of hiring and onboarding and having me as an employee that was very, um, helpful as a disabled [00:13:00] worker, but also just very touching and kind and compassionate.
And it's something that, unfortunately, I haven't had a lot of experience with, but when it happened, I It was such a relief, um, and such a, like, beautiful way to approach work. That's, uh, super insightful. Thanks for sharing that reflection. From everything you just said about what worked well, um, the environment that this hiring manager created, how would you summarize the key messages for employers for this experience?
Like, what did they need to know to be able to replicate some of this?
So, I think, The main facets of it are focusing on, um, if you're a hiring manager looking at [00:14:00] hiring disabled workers, there is an instinct or a kind of like knee jerk reaction to maybe panic or have a, a really worried energy about, okay, I either need to accommodate this person so that they feel included or I don't know how to Like accommodate this person.
I don't know how to handle having a disabled worker working for me. And I think that the main thing that's been positive about my experiences in the workplace have been when the The, again, kind of the human side of hiring gets put first, where you learn about the person, you learn about their lives, you learn about how they function day to day.
Part of that is, you know, learning [00:15:00] about disability and learning about what, what challenges they face on a day to day basis. But a lot of it is just asking, like, meaningful questions and You know, in the same way that a lot of employees have to bend and kind of twist themselves to make it work on their end as employees, being flexible and being able to bend to see the perspective and to understand how your disabled worker is working.
Is functioning in your workplace and the amount of extra work they have to do the, you know, physical, emotional, mental labor of trying to advocate for yourself in a workplace that does not have accommodations or does not care to have them or doesn't want to know how to accommodate people. [00:16:00] It's it's an exhausting process.
Um, and I think that. In my positive experiences, really understanding the person and who they are and seeing what they bring as gifts and, uh, you know, an opportunity to grow and learn, um, is more important, I think, than trying to problem solve right away, um, because there might not be problems right away.
And I think that there's a, again, that knee jerk reaction of something's going to snag and something's going to, it's going to be conflict. Um, that doesn't, there doesn't have to be. Um, and I think that's what I've learned from that employee employer relationship. Is that like you, sometimes it feels like there's snags that happen right away.
But most of the time it's just [00:17:00] system navigating and trying to understand. How we all fit in in this process.
Thank you for sharing. Sounds like you've also Unfortunately had some negative experiences with employment Where maybe you didn't feel included or faced barriers in an accessible employment. Do you want to share anything about what didn't work? Yeah, absolutely. Um, I've had a, um, as I think most, um, disabled people that I've talked to have, uh, experienced a lot of our employing, employee experiences, uh, and, and job based, um, Uh, experiences have had a lot of negative impacts on us.
Um, and, you know, it starts, I believe, in the interviewing and [00:18:00] onboarding process. Uh, as it does even, even before that with, uh, putting the job out into the world and kind of seeing who goes for it. Um, you know, I've applied for countless jobs that do not have statements on accessibility, um, that become very difficult to navigate.
Um, you know, oh, can I send in an accommodation request or should I not? Uh, that makes it difficult to, to be hired in general. Um, interviewing is a really, really big point of contention for me. Uh, I think that a lot of my, uh, Hopelessness as a disabled worker comes from constantly interviewing and constantly being told either that my disability won't jive well or won't work well with the workplace that they have going or the workplace environment that they have, [00:19:00] or that there's nothing that they can do about the inaccessibility of buildings or the inaccessibility of The street or the city that they, that this job is in, um, There's a lot of stuff that, um, has happened.
Even recently, I had a, an interview with, um, an equity, uh, office that I considered to be pretty, uh, accommodating and accessible from an outsider perspective. And when I interviewed, um, I disclosed that I am an ambulatory wheelchair user and that I would be using a wheelchair to, you know, go to and fro from, uh, from the buildings.
And, um, the person just said, you know, like, I have to tell you, I'm like, I'm want to be open about the fact that We are, like, the buildings are extremely inaccessible. We don't have wheelchair [00:20:00] buttons on the doors. We don't have an elevator. Like, we are in a, you know, three story building, and we're on the third floor.
Um, and so at that point in the interview, I knew that despite having all of the prerequisites and all of the more, more, uh, training and experience than any other applicant. I would not have a job offer at the end of it because I use a wheelchair to get around. Um, and that was particularly difficult to stomach, especially from an equity office or something that, you know, prides itself on trying to make as, uh, equitable or accessible as possible.
Um, And yeah, sure enough, a couple days later, I got an email saying that, you know, I wasn't chosen for [00:21:00] the position, uh, but you know, good luck next time type thing. And, uh, those emails are constant. That's, it's barraging every day of just interviews that you do. And, you know, even if you don't disclose your disability, there's always something that you feel like you have to tell them.
And, uh, it just, it, it. very rarely works out in a way that does not make the disabled person almost like punished for their disability in that way. Uh, and that's just the interviewing process, the onboarding process as a whole other, um, whole other thing. I've had difficulty keeping long term jobs, not because of a lack of trying or because I, you know, don't want to, but because of the fact that.
As my disability has progressed, and as I've worked [00:22:00] more, um, my accommodations have changed, or my way of, uh, you know, interacting with the workplace has shifted significantly, and employers have kind of, like, dusted me off of their hands and, like, Said, I can't continue to accommodate you at this point. Uh, it's getting to be too much, uh, or you're asking too much or you aren't telling me exactly what you need when that's not the case.
And I've been open and transparent about that. Um, you know, there's times I remember specifically as a teenager working in customer service where I would request breaks, would not get them and would have full medical breakdowns. In my workplace, which is humiliating and difficult to deal with. Um, and also later on [00:23:00] has almost exacerbated or made worse the, the, the symptoms that I have for my disability, because I was forced to push my body past its limits.
And so therefore made me more disabled, uh, more permanently disabled, um, in a lot of ways. Um, and so there's, there's a lot of things That, um, a lot of large things like, you know, barriers to accommodations, but there's also small print things like in, uh, there was a job that I applied to where I had to be able to lift 50 pounds over my head, uh, repeatedly for six hours straight.
And it was one small bit of that job that I knew that, you know, would not be a problem if I got hired there. Um, but I was open and honest with them and said, like, I can't lift that. Uh, and I can't do that for more [00:24:00] than maybe 30 minutes at a time. Uh, and again, the interviews ended. Immediately, like just flat out.
No, no question of I've, I've, I've had people say like, this interview is concluded, we aren't considering you for the position anymore. We wish you luck in, in finding a job that works for you. Um, and even some employers that have said, you know, have asked me like, where are you going to go or what, what job is going to take you at this point?
Because you're, you're, you're. very specific about the kind of things that you can and can't do, and that leads to a lot of really difficult feelings, uh, for me over the years of just feeling like I'm not I'm asking too much or I'm not being taken seriously in that way. [00:25:00] I'm really sorry to hear about those experiences.
Um, that's unfortunate and hopefully we can, we can help change some of that by sharing. How do you respond in a situation like that? Um, you know, it sounds like there's been a lot of no's and a lot of, um, Yeah, just essentially a lot of two bads. How do you respond to that? Um, it definitely takes a lot of constant reassurance in yourself and your self worth.
Um, there have been, you know, times where I have felt incredibly, uh, again, hopeless and helpless about, um, my job prospects, my future. Um, you know, despite having two degrees, you know, a master's degree and, and all of this, like, I have a lot of work experience and a lot of, [00:26:00] uh, I think like valuable expertise in the fields that I'm in.
Um, And hearing it's not good enough over and over again, not because of something that I'm doing or not doing, but just because of something that's intrinsically a part of who I am, has a deep rooted impact on who I am as a person, and so I'm, I have to kind of steel myself to that and understand that it's a part of the process, and I kind of always understand It's taken me around a decade, but I've finally gotten to a point of, if I get told no or too bad, I will always follow up and ask why, or give a prompting question of, why do you think that this is okay to do to disabled workers, and most of the time [00:27:00] I won't get a response, because people don't have an answer.
Um, but I will constantly. Ask them, you know, if, if someone says like, I am not hiring you because, you know, we didn't choose you for this role. Usually it ends there where they're like, we wish you luck. Have a good day. I will ask why, you know, and kind of just say like, I have the expertise, I have the availability that you want.
I met every criteria that you laid out in the application. What is the reason for the denial? I want to know for my own personal records. Um, and sometimes that's worked, sometimes it hasn't. Again, employers can be helpful and not helpful in that way. Um, and I think that Over the [00:28:00] years, like the no's and two bads don't get easier.
Um, but they do motivate me more because I've heard of so many other people that have had the same problems and the same responses from potential employers or people that have been unemployed for a year or more, like I was right out of university and just like, can't explain why. I'm not employed, uh, because I have everything that I need to be employed, uh, and then having to turn to the one thing that I know is the reason why I'm not employed or won't be employed, which is that I have a disability, and no one wants to take the time or effort to understand me or understand how I work, um, and won't get the privilege of my it.
expertise and lived experience in the workplace. Um, I think that having that kind of [00:29:00] mentality has really helped me in not, uh, falling back into negative thoughts, um, and a negative understanding of my own self worth as an employee and as a disabled worker.
And what do you think could be done differently to make it work better? What could employers do to get away from these knee jerk reactions? I think that meeting disabled people is extremely important and talking to them and having open dialogue, not, not even about workplaces, uh, or jobs in general. Just meeting disabled people in the world, talking with them, and understanding that, like, we are.
A whole human beings that have a lot of experiences [00:30:00] and a lot of really interesting stories to tell. Um, we want to be seen as like human and we want to have experiences that, you know, we can carry forward as everyone else does. Um, I think that employers sometimes, again, see us as problems or, uh, uh, things to solve or, um, you know, just that kind of knee jerk reaction.
I think the, the main thing that I found that's helpful is asking questions, being curious, um, not in a. way to solve problems at first. Um, we can always solve problems that that's will always be something positive that I see as the employer employee relationship is that you can troubleshoot all the time, and it's not something that has to happen on a [00:31:00] deadline.
You know, people's accommodations are going to change, uh, as their life changes in the same way that a person who's been recently bereaved or, um, has gotten sick is going to have their accommodations change. Um, and so I think the biggest thing, and I think this came out of COVID as well, of a lot of people got sick in a short period of time, and it was a mass disabling event.
We all saw what it was like to be disabled without having the permanent disability aspect of it. We were able to see what it's like to say, I cannot come into my job for a month because I'm sick. And the employees or the employers just have to deal with that. They have to be able to troubleshoot and problem solve on their end.
And, uh, I think that thinking on that mentality on the kind of COVID mentality of [00:32:00] there will always be people that are sick, there will always be people that have disabilities that need accommodations, and their expertise and experiences are invaluable to your workplace, because we have experiences that no other group of people has.
Um, and we know how to problem solve a lot quicker than a lot of other people that I've met in workplaces, um, because we do it all the time, every day. Um, you know, I problem solve every time I go out in my wheelchair. Um, I'm constantly assessing and fixing my environment to make sure that I can be out in the world.
And so, I think that understanding that and understanding that, you know, the disabled workers that apply for your jobs are genuinely, interested in working for you and [00:33:00] want to participate, um, is one of the most important things, uh, about employing disabled people in your workplace. And I just want to end with one kind of final questions about disability inclusive practices or actions that work well.
Is there a key message that you want to employers to take away from this? What in your experience, um, has led to success? Yeah, um, I see a lot of stuff, um, uh, surrounding universal versus individual design, um, in workplaces that, um, I think AODA has something, uh, talking about that, about kind of trying to, you know, universal design being, you know, we accommodate all based on a one size fits all approach to [00:34:00] accessibility.
Um, and so like the, you know, we have this list of accommodations. that we can give out to any disabled person that we employ. Um, and I would encourage people to think, I would encourage specifically employers to think about, um, individualizing that approach for specific disabled workers. Um, what I find difficult and challenging and unaccommodating about a workplace is not going to be, um, what another, uh, person with a different type of disability is going to be.
experience from me. I have a physical disability that limits my walking. Um, someone that's hard of hearing might have, definitely will have a different experience and will need different accommodations from me. And having a pre made list of these are the accommodations that we can give out here, you can all have these, uh, [00:35:00] isn't always the best way I find to accommodate.
I find individual conversations. About what people need based on their individual needs. is a lot more helpful and it helps in the long run, uh, with sustainable accommodation. Um, so we have, you know, for me, it's my, uh, a good example is, you know, when I was working at, uh, you know, food industry, I would say I can't stand for more than Um, and so I'd like shifts that are four hours or less, please.
Um, and so they were able to accommodate me in that. And then as time went on, and as my mobility decreased, I had to say, Okay, now I have a doctor's note for two hours at a time. Okay, now it's one hour. Okay, now I have to have a chair when I'm, you know, making food or whatever else. Um, [00:36:00] and. the flexibility, uh, to, it's, it's very scary to tell people about that as a disabled person and as a disabled worker.
But I think that if it's met with flexibility and, uh, we can figure this out mentality, instead of a, we can't do that, or we don't have the criteria to understand how to put a chair, uh, back there or something like it's, I would say be creative with your solutions. And understand that, like, even in the most rigid systems that have, you know, the guidelines set out and everything, there is always room to push and flex on, uh, kind of the rules that make up inaccessible work practices.
Um, and, the best advocates are the ones that come from the top down. Uh, it's been [00:37:00] really interesting to see that happen, um, in, in my own experiences in workplaces. Um, and so, yeah, just like imploring, uh, you know, um, hiring managers to continue the, the fight and struggle for, for, uh, accessibility justice.
In your workplace. Thank you so much, Jackie. That's a great note to wrap up on. What you've shared. What worked and what didn't work has been so insightful, and I'm sure that your experiences will help employers and persons with disabilities on their journeys to inclusion. So thank you again.