Fantastic.

Your exceptions. Are you going? Oh, there we go. Okay.

Just making sure.

Yeah.

So I'm going to start this one a little bit differently, just kind of giving a background spiel on idea in case we end up using any of

Or not idea of the journeys in case we end up using the recording at all or any form.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, for sure.

So welcome, Jackie. Thanks for joining us for Journeys to Inclusion.

These are the stories of persons with disabilities who have found and thrived in fulfilling work.

and of the workplace leaders, the confidence, capacity, and know-how.

to employ and mentor them.

These stories can be powerful tools for creative, inclusive workplaces.

The Journeys to Inclusion project provides real-world examples of how evidence-based solutions

can be put into practice in different contexts.

They also put a human face to the challenges and rewards of building inclusive workplaces.

And we're hoping here to also build communities and encourage dialogue around

Workplace accessibility and inclusion

And perhaps most importantly, to inspire other employees, lawyers, community organizations.

And persons with disabilities to embark on and persist in their own journeys.

To start, would you mind just telling me a little bit about yourself?

your education and employment background?

Yeah, for sure. So my name is Jackie Pugh.

have a um

a couple of degrees. My first was in a bachelor's of music, which was an honors bachelor's

And the second one, I guess I have a minor in women and gender studies as well from that

And the second one was a master's of social justice and community engagement.

I have had a wide range of jobs

starting with customer service and, you know, food service industry um

positions to research positions and

administration over the years it's varied and I have a wide a wide array of experience uh and

a lot of different areas for work.

Okay, so it sounds like we have a lot to potentially discuss today.

Yeah, for sure.

So can you tell me about a highly positive experience for you at work?

where you felt included and able to fully participate?

Yeah, absolutely.

I've had a couple of, or I've held a couple of uh

like university-based

job positions in my time.

Both in school and out of school. When I was in school, there was a job that I had that

pertain to working in kind of like an equity office um

And I was…

constantly kind of

really pleasantly surprised at how accommodating my boss was and how accommodating my coworkers were.

A lot of them didn't

really focus on accessibility as

something that needs to be solved or

addressed in the major way

they kind of were able to mix it into

getting to know me as a person instead of having this

huge conversation about

you know accommodations or like we want to get to know you as a person and what you need

as a worker and part of that was just, you know, that I needed accommodations for

for working there and

you know, every time that I would go in

or join on calls, there would be like

check-ins at the beginning to say like, you know, how are you doing are we

Is this a good time to meet? If not, we can reschedule. They were very flexible.

And very understanding um

I think it's pretty easy for a lot of employers to get frustrated with

You know, disabled

people's need for

rescheduling or rescheduling or

canceling meetings for health reasons or because of appointments.

And they were constantly just reassuring and said like

you know it's okay if we need to

put this on the back burner so that you can get something fixed or to

to get to this appointment because like it's more important that you

are, you know, taking care of yourself and we can deal with the rest later

So there's a lot of really

positive things that came out of those jobs.

A lot of which have carried with me to

other workplaces in terms of like the expectations of how to be treated as a worker.

So one of the things I think

that was most positive was that they

again saw me as

a whole person

am not a problem to be fixed or something that

might be difficult to address and they

saw my expertise and my

kind of my lived experience as

a…

a really positive aspect of my employment.

And that's what carried through in our kind of work relationship wasn't that like

they were giving me

accommodations, but instead they were

allowing me to make decisions and have autonomy over my workplace.

um and how

I was going to be received and treated in that way so that way

Yeah, lots of really positive experiences in those jobs that I had.

That sounds great. Thanks for sharing. It sounds like um

there were some processes in place

that really made

Just your everyday communications and working relationship

work pretty smoothly.

Okay.

who was involved in this process? Did it come from management? Was it just everyone you worked with? How did that play out?

Yeah, this was um

during kind of the tail end of the first

bit of the COVID pandemic. And so a lot of our work was done online so i had a

limited number of coworkers at my disposal. I had

One kind of touchstone person that

I went to, she didn't like to call herself my boss but she

for all intents and purposes was, or at least was a supervisor for me and ran the office that I was a part of.

And she essentially

was the person that connected me to

different areas of the university and those people I considered to be coworkers because we were working towards a similar

goal, even though we weren't under the same office, it was a bit of a strange thing, but it was COVID and we didn't have a lot of

like a solidified understanding of who

we were to each other we just kind of

saw that we needed to

to work on a goal and join together to do that. So it came from

like mostly mostly that main

kind of hiring figure um

and uh

than there were offshoots of other people as well. But yeah, mainly that that person.

Okay.

And what was your role in making this work well?

I think I was honest, which is difficult, I think, for

for me in particular and my kind of experiences with

interviewing, with getting hired. You know, I've been

I started working

as a disabled person when I was, you know, 15, 16 years old so

I've always been

disabled in every field that I've worked in. And a lot of those fields have required me to

be very careful about who I tell

about my disability and what I disclose and when I do so because the

then jobs won't call you back or there'll be a very distinct like, oh, well, you can't do this. This interview is pretty much over because we can't

you know um

we can't kind of fit that fit you into

our workplaces.

And I think that with this, the reason why it worked on my end was that I saw an opening for being

vulnerable and open and honest with

a hiring manager

and trusted that she would receive what i said

positively and would take it and actually do something with it.

I've had a lot of experiences where that isn't the case and it's kind of

stung me in a way. And so I really, I think that me being honest about

what I need for accommodations, how much time I need for projects, if I need an extension.

On timelines, if I feel like I'm not you know

something isn't mixing or melding well

Or even just if, you know, I'm not

kind of understanding something that all of it really

depended on me

like communicating that to my to my hiring manager and then also

having open and honest communication and conversations with her

Okay.

about, you know, this week is bad for

chronic pain this week is a bit difficult because I have three appointments in a row that I've been waiting for for two years like there's a lot of things that I think

if they hadn't been said would have been passed off as not

caring or not being invested in the work that I'm doing.

And so me being open and transparent with her

was part of how I made that work.

And also just understanding my

rights as a disabled worker and

understanding how

AODA works and how the um

different programming can help me

If there needs to be some kind of

push in a direction, which thankfully there wasn't but um

yeah just having having tools in my back pocket to pull out if I need them.

Right. And so one thing you said there struck me was that there was

you saw an opening, to be honest, about your needs.

Mm-hmm.

What was it that that hiring manager did that made you feel like you could be honest, that presented this opening?

it's it's

Interesting, because I've thought about this a lot.

just over the years and over the years

you know looking at different managers and different jobs that I'd had and how this is so different and refreshing

And I genuinely think that the one thing

that this person did was

like I said, just kind of see me as a whole person

instead of seeing me as a problem or as something

an issue to be solved or a

a complication in her day. There was never

a look of or an acknowledgement of

oh, this might be difficult for me to figure out. It was always a positive

okay, this is challenging because of the system that we work in.

but not because of you or your situation. This is a broader

system problem and she was very committed to

You know, in a system that's rigidly

ableist like academia, she was willing to push back against that

to a point where she advocated for me

uh with you know the dean of students she um pushed back against

some people that thought that my position in her office wasn't necessary and advocated for

the inclusion of disability justice in

an equity program um

And so I think that there's a

a very human aspect to

her way of hiring and onboarding and

having me as an employee that was

very helpful as a disabled worker.

but also just very touching and

kind and compassionate and it's something that

Unfortunately, I haven't had a lot of experience with, but when it happened

it was such a relief

um and

such a beautiful way to approach work

That's super insightful. Thanks for sharing that reflection.

From everything you just said about what worked well, the environment that this hiring manager created.

how do you summarize the key messages for employers for this experience? What do they need to know?

To be able to replicate some of this.

So I think…

the main facets of it are

focusing on if you're a hiring manager looking at

hiring disabled workers

there is an instinct or a kind of like knee-jerk reaction to

maybe panic or have a a really

worried energy about, okay, I either need to

accommodate this person so that they feel included or

I don't know how

to like

accommodate this person. I don't know how to handle

having a disabled worker working for me

And I think that the main thing that's been positive about my experiences in the workplace have been

when the

the again kind of the human side of the human

hiring gets put first where

you learn about the person

you learn about their lives, you learn about how

they function day to day.

Part of that is learning about disability and learning about what challenges they face on a day-to-day basis.

But a lot of it is just

asking

like meaningful questions and

you know in the same way that a lot of employees have to bend

and kind of twist themselves to make

at work on their end as employees

being flexible and being able to bend to

see the perspective and to understand

how your disabled worker is functioning in your workplace and the amount of

extra work they have to do the you know

physical, emotional, mental labor of

trying to advocate for yourself in a workplace that does not have

accommodations or does not care to have them or doesn't want to know

how to accommodate people. It's an exhausting process

um and

I think that

in my positive experiences.

really understanding the person and who they are

And seeing what they bring as

gifts and uh

you know an opportunity to grow and learn

is more important, I think, than trying to problem solve right away.

Because there might not be problems right away.

And I think that there's again that knee-jerk reaction of something's going to snag and something's going to

there's going to be conflict.

There doesn't have to be. And I think that's what I've learned from that employee

employer relationship is it like you

sometimes it feels like there's

snags that happen right away.

But most of the time it's just

system navigating and

trying to understand

how we all fit in this process.

Thank you for sharing. That's great. Sounds like you've also unfortunately had some negative experiences.

with employment where maybe you didn't feel included or faced barriers in accessible employment.

Do you want to share anything about kind of like what didn't work to kind of

I guess tell employers what not to do.

Yeah, absolutely.

I've had a um

As I think most

disabled people that I've talked to have uh

experienced a lot of our employee experiences and job based

experiences have had a lot of negative impacts on us.

And, you know, it starts, I believe, in

the interviewing and onboarding process as it does. Even before that with uh putting the

the job out into the world and kind of seeing who goes for it.

you know, I've applied for countless jobs that do not have

statements on accessibility um that

become very difficult to navigate

You know, oh, can I send in an accommodation request or should I not?

that makes it difficult to to

be hired in general.

Interviewing is a really, really big point of contention for me. I think that

a lot of my

hopelessness as a disabled worker comes from

constantly interviewing and constantly being told

either that my disability won't jive well or won't work well with the workplace that they have.

going or the workplace environment that they have

or the

there's nothing that they can do about the inaccessibility of buildings or

the inaccessibility of

the street or the city that this job is in

there's a lot of stuff that has happened. Even recently, I had an interview with um

an equity office

that I considered to be pretty accommodating and

accessible from an outsider perspective. And when I interviewed

I disclosed that I am an ambulatory wheelchair user and that I would be using a wheelchair to

you know go to and fro from the buildings and

immediately the person just said you know like

I have to tell you, I want to be open about the fact that

we are like the buildings are extremely inaccessible. We don't have

wheelchair buttons on the doors. We don't have an elevator like we are in a

you know, three-story building and we're on the third floor

And so at that point in the interview i knew

that despite having all of the

prerequisites and all of the

more more

training and experience than any other applicant

I would not have

a job offer at the end of it because i

use a wheelchair to get around.

And that was

particularly difficult to

Mm-hmm.

stomach, especially from an equity office or

something that you know prides itself on

trying to make things as

equitable or accessible as possible

And yeah, sure enough, a couple days later

got an email saying that you know i wasn't chosen for the position

But, you know, good luck next time type thing and

Mm-hmm.

those emails are constant. It's barraging every day of just interviews that you do and you know even if you

don't disclose your disability. There's always something that you feel like you have to tell them

And, uh.

it just it it very rarely works out

in a way that does not make the disabled person

Mm-hmm.

almost like punished for their disability in that way. And that's just the interviewing process, the onboarding process is a whole other

Whole other thing I've had

difficulty keeping

long-term jobs, not because of a lack of trying or because i

you know don't want to, but because of the fact that

as my disability has progressed and as i've worked more

my accommodations have changed or my way of

you know, interacting with the workplace has shifted significantly

And employers have kind of like

dusted me off of their hands and like

said i

can't continue to accommodate you at this point. It's getting to be too much

or you're asking too much or you aren't

telling me exactly what you need when that's not the case and I've been open and transparent about that.

you know there's

times I remember specifically as a teenager working in customer service where

I would request breaks.

would not get them and would have full medical breakdowns

In my workplace, which is humiliating and difficult to deal with.

And also.

like later on has

almost exacerbated or made worse the symptoms that i have

for my disability because I was forced to push my body past

its limits and so therefore made me more disabled

more permanently disabled in a lot of ways.

And so there's a lot of things

that a lot of large things like barriers to accommodations

But there's also small print things like in

there was a job that I applied to where I had to be able to lift 50 pounds over my head.

repeatedly for six hours straight.

And it was one small bit of that job

that I knew that

you know would not be a problem if I got hired there.

But I was open and honest with them and said like i can't

lift that, and I can't do that for more than

maybe 30 minutes at a time.

And again, the interviews ended immediately like just

flat out no no question of I've had people say like

This interview is concluded we

aren't considering you for the position anymore

we wish you luck in finding a job that works for you. And even some employers that have said

you know have asked me like where are you going to go or what what job is going to

take you at this point because you're

very specific

about the kind of things that you can and can't do

And that leads to a lot of

really difficult feelings for me over the years of just

feeling like i'm not feeling like i'm not

I'm asking too much or I'm not

Mm-hmm.

being taken seriously in that way.

I'm really sorry to hear about those experiences.

That's unfortunate and hopefully we can help change some of that

by sharing.

Yes.

how do you respond in a situation like that?

You know, it sounds like there's been a lot of no's and a lot of

Yeah, just essentially a lot of too bads. How do you respond to that?

It definitely takes a lot of

constant reassurance in yourself and your self-worth.

there have been, you know, times where i

have felt

incredibly, again, hopeless and helpless about my job prospects my future

You know, despite having two degrees, you know, a master's degree and

and all of this, like, I have a lot of work experience and a lot of

I think like valuable expertise in the fields that I'm in

and hearing

it's not good enough over and over again, not because of something that I'm doing or not doing

But just because of something that's intrinsically a part of who i am

has a deep rooted impact

on who I am as a person. And so I have to kind of

steal myself to that and

understand that

It's a part of the process. And I kind of always

It's taken me around a decade, but I've finally gotten to a point of

if I get told no or too bad

I will always follow up.

and ask why or give a prompting question of

why do you think that this is okay to do

to disabled workers and most of the time i won't get a response

Because people don't have an answer.

Mm-hmm.

But I will constantly

ask them, you know, if someone says like i

I'm not hiring you

you know, we didn't choose you for this role. Usually it ends there where they're like, we wish you luck.

Have a good day. I will ask why.

Okay.

you know and kind of just say like, I have the expertise i have

the availability that you want. I met every criteria that you laid out in the

application, what is the reason

for…

the denial um

I want to know from my own personal records and

Mm-hmm.

Sometimes that's worked, sometimes it hasn't. Again, employers can be helpful and not helpful in that way.

And I think that

over the years, like the nose and two baths don't get easier

But they do motivate me more because I've heard of so many other people that have had the same problems and the same

responses from potential employers or people that have been unemployed for a year or more like I was right out of university and just like

can't explain why I'm not employed because I have everything that I need to be employed.

And then having to turn to the one thing that I know

is the reason why I'm not employed.

or won't be employed, which is that I have a disability.

And no one wants to take the time

or effort to understand

or understand how I work.

and won't get the privilege of my

expertise and lived experience in the workplace.

I think that having that kind of mentality

has really helped me

And…

not falling back into negative thought and

a negative understanding of my own self-worth as an employee

And as a disabled worker.

Mm-hmm.

And what do you think could be done differently to make it work better? What can employers do to

get away from these knee-jerk reactions.

I think that

meeting disabled people is extremely important.

and talking to them and having

open dialogue, not even about workplaces or jobs in general just

meeting disabled people

in the world talking with them

an understanding that like

we are whole human beings that have a lot of experiences and a lot of really interesting stories to tell.

we want to be seen as like human and we want to have experiences that

you know we can

carry forward as everyone else does. And I think that

employers sometimes, again, see us as problems or

things to solve or, you know, just that kind of knee jerk reaction i think the

the main thing that I found that's helpful is

Asking questions, being curious.

not in a

way to solve problems at first.

We can always solve problems that that's always

will always be something positive that I see as the employer-employee relationship is that

you can troubleshoot

all the time and it's not

something that has to happen on a deadline you know people's accommodations are going to change

as their life changes in the same way that

a person who's been recently bereaved or

has gotten sick is going to have their accommodations change

And so I think the biggest thing, and I think this came out of COVID as well of

a lot of people got sick in a short period of time and it was a mass disabling event

we all saw what it was like to be disabled.

without having the permanent disability aspect of it.

we were able to see what it's like to

So I cannot come into my job for a month

Because I'm sick.

And the employees or the employers just have to deal with that.

they have to be able to troubleshoot and problem solve on their end.

and uh

I think that thinking on that mentality on the kind of COVID mentality of

there will always be people that are sick. There will always be people that have disabilities that

need accommodations

And…

their expertise and experiences are

invaluable to invaluable to

your workplace because we have

experiences that no other group of people has.

And we know how to problem solve.

a lot quicker than a lot of other people that I've met in workplaces because we do it

all the time, every day, you know, I problem solve

every time I go out in my wheelchair, I'm constantly

assessing and fixing my environment to make sure that I can be out in the world.

And so I think that understanding that and understanding that

you know, the disabled workers that apply for your jobs are genuinely

interested in working for you

and want to participate.

is one of the most important things.

about employing disabled people in your workplace.

Thanks.

And I just want to end with one kind of final questions about

disability inclusive practices or actions that work well. Is there a key message that you want to

employers to take away from this like

what in your experience

has led to success.

Yeah.

I see a lot of stuff um

surrounding universal versus individual design

in workplaces that um

I think AODA has something

talking about that, about kind of trying to

you know universal design being

you know we accommodate all based on

a one-size-fits-all approach to

accessibility. And so like the, you know, we have this

list of accommodations

that we can give out to any disabled person that we employ.

And I would encourage people to

think I would encourage specifically employers to think about

individualizing that approach for

specific disabled workers

what I find difficult and challenging and unaccommodating about a workplace is not going to be

what another person with a different type of disability is going to

experience from me. I have a physical disability that limits my walking.

someone that's hard of hearing might have

definitely will have a different experience

And we'll need different accommodations from me

And having a pre-made list of

these are the accommodations that we can give out

Here, you can all have these

isn't always the best way

I find to accommodate. I find individual conversations

about what people need based on their individual needs.

is a lot more helpful and it helps in the long run with

sustainable accommodation. So we have

you know for me it's a good example is, you know, when I was working

at food industry, I would say I can't stand for more than

five hours at a time. And so I had like shifts that are four hours or less please

And so they were able to accommodate me that and then

as time went on and as my mobility decreased, I had to say

okay, now I have a doctor's note for two hours at a time.

Okay, now it's one hour. Okay, now I have to have a chair

when I'm you know making food or whatever else um

And the flexibility

It's very scary to tell people about that as a disabled person.

And as a disabled worker

But I think that if it's met with flexibility and we can figure this out mentality.

instead of a we can't do that or

we don't have the criteria to understand how to put a chair

back there or something like it's

I would say be creative

with your solutions and understand that like even

in the most rigid systems that have

you know the guidelines set out and everything there is always room

to push and flex

kind of the rules that make up an accessible work practices.

And

the best advocates are the ones that come from the top

down uh it's been really interesting to see that happen

In my own experiences in workplaces.

And so, yeah, just like

imploring

you know, hiring managers to

continue the

to fight and

struggle for accessibility justice.

in your workplace.

I think that's a great place to

wrap up for today. So thank you, Jackie, so much for sharing

some of your stories about inclusive practices, what worked and what didn't work.

I'm sure that

what you have shared is great knowledge

for employers and persons with disabilities to take into into their

into consideration in their journeys.

Thanks so much.

Yeah, thank you very much.